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Now some readers are throwing Mill Reef and Sir Ivor into the mix and "middle distance " is used to exclude Frankel.They are even using the Derby to exlude him. And name calling the great Sea the Stars.Others using an extra hundred yards to prove he WAS a middle distance horse.Sad.Why not admit he was the greatest non Derby,non Arc winner in the world, over a mile and two and leave it at that?
Oh, I gladly admit that he was "the greatest non Derby,non Arc winner in the world, over a mile and two", but leave it at that? No chance. I don’t see why I would go on calling the horse I (and seemingly Fabre, Balding, Sir Henry, Sir Michael and a few others too) believe is the greatest horse ever the "greatest non Derby,non Arc winner in the world, over a mile and two" when I could just plainly call him the greatest horse ever.
oh dear, terrible call by me there
I hold my hands up. thats why I don’t play betfair anymore
however 4-1 kingsbarns for the derby? you must be kidding. I think that was a pretty poor group one.
Looked a much better race than both of Dawn Approach’s Group 1 wins where he never really had any opposition, or even the Middle Park and Vincent O’Brien stakes. Steeler was a convincing Royal Lodge winner, and Trading Leather also won what everybody thought was a strong renewal of the Autumn stakes. I wouldn’t back him at that price either, but there was nothing wrong with that race and performance. In fact, I thought it was pretty impressive.
We all fall into that trap of thinking so and so isn’t that good when Frankel kicks them aside but what a horse Exelebrartion would have been without him around.
He may well have been rated around the Brigadiers mark
as without Frankel he may well have been going for his 13th consecutive win on Saturday. Imagine the write ups he’d be getting and how highly Timeform would have rated him had Frankel not existed.
A bit of a rant to get to the point that I agree Dancing Brave was no where near as good as Frankel only Secretariat and Sea-Bird can be mentioned in the same breath
Excelebration rated around the same as BG, you must be having a laugh. He’d have been left trailing in his wake and been just as tried at staring at his backside disappearing into the distance as he has been of Frankel’s.
Frankel is a fantastic racehorse but people do need to keep some perspective. I never saw Sea Bird race but there is no doubt in my mind the likes of DB, Mill Reef and BG can be comfortably mentioned in the same breath as Frankel.
Yep, but you seem to be missing HGD’s point. If indeed there was no Frankel and Excelebration had gone on to win 13 consecutive, most of which would have been G1s in HGD’s hypothetical example(actually Zoffany did finish ahead of him in in the ST James Palace), then the reality is he would have been regarded as one of the all-time great milers and indeed wouldn’t have been rated that far off Brigadier Gerard. Now, I don’t think he would have won 13 on the trot, but he still would have earned an incredible collection of G1 wins, and there’s absolutely no way anyone would have entertained the idea of a multiple consecutive Group 1s winner finishing miles behind any other previous miler. The only reason you can consider such a possibility is because of what Frankel did to him. That’s the main issue when rating the opposition against something as exceptional as Frankel. If Goldikova was always coming up against Zarkava and finishing second to her constantly as she did in the French 1000 Guineas and Oaks, then no way would she have been regarded as one of the all-time great mares as she is today. Yet, she would have been the same horse all the way through.
Cirrus Des Aigles last 4 runs on heavy or very soft going have ended up in 4 wins by 8, 10, 8 and 9 lengths respectively and never fully extended. As I pointed out previously, I think people fail to appreciate what a fricking monster that horse is on such ground. Would have won the Arc by a country mile imo given the conditions had he qualified for racing in it.
Still fancy Frankel simply because I cannot stand the idea of him going out on a defeat, but I don’t think this race is as much of a foregone conclusion as his races this season. Cirrus on heavy going is quite a few pounds ahead of the Cirrus on other grounds, which most seem to be rating him on.
On a side note, really looking forward to Galileo Rock tomorrow. My early fancy for the Derby.
Cirrus Des Aigles is truly one of the very best horses I’ve seen on heavy ground. He’s already a very good horse on good ground, but he seems to improve by lengths when it gets heavier. While I don’t fancy him to trouble Frankel on good ground, if ever we get sticky conditions on the day, well you just never know.
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
Irish Derby best classic recently in Europe? I would really like to know how this works out? How the heck is last five years’ lot of Frozen Fire, Fame And Glory, Cape Blanco and Treasure Beach better than the Derby’s New Approach, Sea The Stars, Workforce, Pour Moi or the Guineas’ Henrythenavigator, Sea The Stars, Makfi and Frankel (Camelot being of course the fifth winner of each of these)? Utter bullshit I’m afraid. Even the Prix De Diane has a better lot with Zarkava, Stacelita, Sarafina, Golden Lilac and Valyra.
I do agree with those who say the blame placed on Joseph’s shoulders is completely exaggerated.
Tbh, I would sooner place the blame at Aiden’s doorstep than Joseph (even though I guess that doesn’t make much sense as they probably live in the same place). I don’t think the lay-off he had was ideal preparation for a 2900m race. My personal opinion is that had they scrape off the Irish Derby and went for the Voltigeur as previously planned, Camelot may well have run into immortality today. But, that of course, we will never know.
Don’t think he beat anything of note today, but he’s definitely a serious prospect. Like many, never really liked 2 year olds who make their debut as early as March, but definitely can’t ignore this one. Hope they keep him with Bolger though.
Well, remind me of Charismatic really. Placed not once but twice in claiming races by his owner, and three months later, he wins the Kentucky Derby, which he follows up with a Preakness Stakes win. From a claimer to being talked about as the first possible triple crown winner since Affirmed, he even led during the final straight but fractured a leg in the run-in and ended up in third. The aftermath of the race is also incredibly famous with the late Chris Antley (about a whole movie could be written as well) holding the horse’s leg and possibly saving the horse in the process.
I think there’s a movie produced by ESPN on youtube, which I think you guys should really check out.
Superman must have been rooting against Frankel since he prefers the underdog to win.
Well, we know you have!
Orfevre is a "he", Hurdygurdyman. And, Ugly Mare, if you fancy Meandre, then surely No Risk At All must have some claim of some sort given how easily he dispatched Fabre’s horse earlier on this season. Not saying he’s gonna win, but he’s very much the underrated horse in this year’s field in my mind.
Looking at the french horses, No Risk At All is the ante-post bet of the race for me at the moment. Absolutely routed Meandre earlier this season and has to be considered as one of the most improved horses around. Better to take the price he’s being quoted right now before the running of the Arc preps.
Talking about possible value for money, I’ll be quite interested to know where Great Heavens will be headed if she wins the Vermeille, which I think she will. I guess the fillies and mares race at Ascot seems the most likely option but it will be interesting to hear what Gosden says. She’s the next big European mare in my opinion and could have been the horse to stop Camelot’s triple crown bid, the St Leger not much of a race now.
The Fugue to win for me, but each-way on Shirocco Star seems like the best bet out-there.
Of course they are subjective as are the opinions of Andre Fabre and Henry Cecil.But what an amazing coincident that they both declared that the two horses in question,Golden Lilac and Frankel were the best they ever trained!
Andre Fabre has said Golden Lilac is the best he’s ever trained? As much as I know, he’s only said it was the best filly he trained. He has always considered Manduro as the best he’s trained, and I doubt he would put Golden Lilac in the same class as Peintre Celebre either. I personally think Beauty Parlour will prove better than Golden Lilac as the season goes on, and if he gets the mares, Deep Impact could well prove Galileo’s biggest rival. As big a fan as I am of Galileo, he has made an even more impressive start to his stallion career than Galileo.
I am seriously bored with Frankel and the yard for not taking any risks. I cant believe the public think he is the best horse in the world, when he just about makes the top 3
lolTop 3
1. Black Caviar
2. So you think
3. Camelot/ FrankelBtw im not Australian lol they just have two very good horses lol
Thoughts??
Deeman
Wow you guys really dont understand TONGUE IN CHEEK, it wasnt meant to be taken seriously
You do realise im the one that started this thread, obviously it was intended to get a reaction out of you but I expected you to understand it was TONGUE IN CHEEK, nevermind
Deeman
Or maybe it just you who haven’t got a clue about making appropriate "tongue in cheeck" comment? You’re about the only on this forum who thinks your posts scream of sarcasm. See the common parameter here, maybe start looking in your own backgarden eh?
All you come across with your smileys and complete failures at sarcasm is some 10 year old kid who’s consistently been ending up with egg on his face with his comments about how Frankel is gonna get beat (or how he’s beat nothing of note, or how Canford Cliffs is a distinctly average sort), and yet still somehow manage to make even more of a fool of himself by trying to pass his comments as tongue in cheek! How prodigious! I think you should stick to Facebook.
lol
