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So You Think wouldn’t get anywhere near Excelebration on the mile, nevermind Frankel. He took bloody ages to get past Workforce, a 1 mile and a half horse, and never seemed to genuinely be able to outpace Snow Fairy or Cirrus Des Aigles, hardly speed horses themselves. And, for all the training bullshit, he could be trained as a quaterhorse for all I care, there’s no way he would have matched Excelebration, Canford Cliffs, Dream Ahead for speed. There’s a reason why they picked to run in the weakest group 1 of the season, rather than take on Frankel.
Ahem…
Btw, you still haven’t replied to my question about why Dr Fager is considered by the american public as far superior to the likes of Gallant Fox, Omaha and Assault, all triple crown winners. I could just as easily substitute Dr Fager for other all-time greats that did not have to win the triple crown like Kelso, Forego, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer etc.. in this argument, and it would still hold. And, he says it’s backfired on me? Delusion at its best!
Man O’ War never won a Triple Crown, didn’t stop him from being largely considered as America’s greatest ever horse. Your criteria for all-time greatness once again showed up for what it is. Utter bullshit.
Now you’re talkin Seabird,you got there in the end!
Man o War
is the best horse ever to grace the American Shoreline and is an All Time Great,he would have won the Kentucky Derby had he been entered but at least won both the Preakness and Belmont! Makes your
Dr Fagar
look average when you compare the 2 now though eh? There lies the difference between Great and All Time Great,the quality of the race these horses contest like I’ve said all along,just remember though I was discussing All Time Greats from these shores,you thought you’d try and catch me out and its backfired on you!
Dr Fagar
couldn’t lace
Man O Wars
boots! Try again!
So, you do admit that Man O’ War is an all-time great then. But, I thought…
Are you serious? To be an all time Great in the USA you have to be a triple crown winner.
..yet Man O’ war never won a triple crown. Gonna teach you to pick stupid restrictive criteria. Btw, you still haven’t replied to my question about why Dr Fager is considered by the american public as far superior to the likes of Gallant Fox, Omaha and Assault, all triple crown winners. I could just as easily substitute Dr Fager for other all-time greats that did not have to win the triple crown like Kelso, Forego, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer etc.. in this argument, and it would still hold. And, he says it’s backfired on me? Delusion at its best!
…So I take it you won’t be watching the Preakness this evening?
Most definately would have had I been still awake! Roll on The Belmont,the Triple Crown and Breeders cup still appeal particularly as a spectacle! It takes a special horse to win the American Triple Crown,and a bloody good one to even contest the 3 races,I wonder why
Dr Fagar
never ran in any of them?
,easy to blame an injury when connections knew he would struggle to get home in all three.I suppose old SeabirdII ratesDamascus
an All Time Great too!
Man O’ War never won a Triple Crown, didn’t stop him from being largely considered as America’s greatest ever horse. Your criteria for all-time greatness once again showed up for what it is. Utter bullshit.
Haha, so much for the self-awarded title of ante-post king!
Seabird you are like a little Terrier with its teeth in my ankle! I am ‘The Ante-Post King’ because the majority of my wagers are at inflated Ante-Post prices that year on year return a profit! Now you are obviously well named too as you keep sh*tting on my head.I have no interest in US racing as the yankee dollar doesn’t know the price of
Mince
and it certainly doesn’t put food on my table! You are obviously an authority on US Racing,good for you but I get more pleasure watching ‘Calgary Bay’ rolling in dirt than an American horse running on it,each to their own!
Well, if you have no interest in US racing then just restrain from commenting about it, instead of spouting shite like Dr Fager is not a US all-time great and that a horse has to win the Triple Crown to be regarded as such. Simple. And, no, I’m not an authority on US racing, but I don’t need to be one to be aware of Dr Fager’s greatness. The fact is, contrary to your criteria, Dr Fager is very much a US all-time great and he didn’t need to win on 12 furlongs to be considered as such. End of.
How anyone can laugh out at Dr Fager’s credentials a tremendous champion and then admit not to having a clue about US racing is beyond me!
Really wish Dream Ahead had stayed in training and that Deacon Blues, who quite like Ascot, did not get injured. They are the only two who could give Black Caviar a propoer run. What remains of the field looks distinctly average. IMO, the biggest test Black Caviar could face in Europe is if they decide to take her to France to face Moonlight Cloud.
Gord – when it comes to Frankel we all know who is "blinkered" mate. Your ego will never allow you to accept this horse in the way the vast majority of others do. You missed him. Never mind. We can’t all be perfect.
Joni I never missed him,
I could have
backed him at 10/1 for the Guineas as a 2yo,I watched him many times and I concluded he was a Nutcase,I was totally convinced he was a flash in the pan 2yo and that as a 3yo he would self-destruct,I thought his physique was too ‘square’ I didn’t like his head carriage,he was everything in a horse that Prince Khaled had never bred before.I was wrong about his Guineas performance,massively so,a truly awesome display!
So you did miss him then
Haha, so much for the self-awarded title of ante-post king!
Noble Mission and Frankel to win tomorrow, with Bullet train in second. Ok, maybe not Bullet Train, but must still be quite rare for a broodmare to have three progenies running on the same day.
The Ante-Post King, erm…
Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
Could you try responding to the whole argument instead of nitpicking, or are you suggesting that Dr Fager is not an all-time great and Black Caviar won’t be considered as one in Australia, coz’ they don’t meet Mr TAPK’s criteria for greatness?
‘Dr Fager’ an all time great? Are you serious? To be an all time Great in the USA you have to be a triple crown winner we’ll leave them with
Secretariat
!
‘Black Caviar’ is a Top class Sprinter,IF and its a big IF she wins the Golden Jubilee and the July Cup she will get the credit she’ll deserve,She hasn’t so she aint no all time great yet SeabirdII and for the record its not my criteria its racings in general. ‘Dr Fager’ an all time Great! Geezus!Now, he’s denying that Dr Fager is a US all time great! Oh my bloody god! I’m sorry to say but you are making an embarrasment of yourself here. Blood-horse magazine even had him as 6th greatest US horse ahead of Seattle Slew and Affirmed, themselves triple crown. Now, it doesn’t matter if that list is any good or not, the fact remains. You must be about the only person on this forum who does not regard Dr Fager as an all-time great, and who would have the likes of Gallant Fox, Assault, Omaha etc… ahead of him in the greatness list just because they’ve won the triple crown. And, no, you don’t need to win the Triple Crown in America to be considered an all-time great. As a matter of fact, their greatest horse, Man O’ War never did.
And, wait, so Black Caviar will only be regarded as an all-time great if she wins the Golden Jubilee and the July Cup? But, as much as I know, both of these are sprint races. I thought, that according to your criteria, a horse can only be considered an all-time great if he/she wins on a variety of distances. Sending mixed signals, are ya?
The Ante-Post King, erm…
Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
Could you try responding to the whole argument instead of nitpicking, or are you suggesting that Dr Fager is not an all-time great and Black Caviar won’t be considered as one in Australia, coz’ they don’t meet Mr TAPK’s criteria for greatness?
Your criteria for all time greatness is recognised throughout the world as the criteria to establish greatness? Haha, delusional. And, Chief Singer would have given Abernant a run over 6f? Just shows your level of horse racing knowldege really. There are quite a few pre-war triple crown winners who are hardly mentioned in the same vein as Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, who yet failed to get the Guineas and Derby distance respectively.
The criteria for all time greats is in the term itself i.e. whether they are resist the test of time and are still talked about in glowing terms by future generations, just like we are talking about Abernant, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave in this thread decades after their racing career. That’s how you recognise an all-time great, and whether you like it or not, future generations will be talking about Frankel in this very same way. All time great not all distance great, son!
Get it right sunshine You are talking about ‘Abernant’ and ‘Tudor Minstrel, as all time greats! I think sentiment is ruling your old head,incredibly both being closely related to a horse with plenty of stamina (Hyperion) neither had any! You fancy yourself as a bit of a judge eh?
Says the one who argues his criteria is established around the world. Pebbles is an all-time great but not Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, oh well haha.. Anyway, you don’t like the Abernant and Tudor Minstrel examples, eh? Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
You didnt mention one great performer there. Canford cliffs lost 1/3 of his races, yeah what an amazing horse lol
DEEMAN
Yeah, only 5 Group 1s. True definition of average, there…
And, as I said, Dream Ahead was the best sprinter in Europe last year, but was done for speed by Frankel twice, yet Frankel is not speedy enough to win a 6f. 5 Group 1s for Dream Ahead as well, average eh… We seem to have a very different definition of averageness.
You see Canford Cliffs and Dream Ahead as horses who lost 1/3 of their races, I see them as winning 2/3 of their races at the very top level.
How about you try to answer the arguments put forward above your post instead of inducing illusionary arguments. As I said, your criteria for all-time greatness is completely erroneous. Your criteria of winning at different distances would have meant horses like Abernant and Tudor Minstrel should not be considered as all time greats, nor should Black Caviar as an all-time aussie great. The reality is Abernant was stepped up to the Guineas and Tudor Minstrel to the Derby, yet both failed. But eh, who cares? Abernant = All Time Great, Tudor Minstrel = All Time Great, and rightly so.
My Criteria (as you put it) for all time Greatness is actually recognised throughout the world of racing as The Criteria to establish Greatness,its a bit like ‘All round Greatness’ SeabirdII, horses that are blessed with speed and stamina come along rarely,there are great ‘Speed’ horses like
Chief Singer
but he’s no all time great and he’d have given Abernant a run for his money over 6f but would have eaten him over a mile!
El Gran Senor
would have beaten ‘Tudor Minstrel’ over a mile and have left him for dead over a 11/2m and again wont be classed as an all time great because he never won the Arc,which incidentally is THE RACE of races when assessing an all time great! Neither of your horses are even recognised as ‘All time Greats’ because of their limited ability to see out anything other than their favoured trips.All time Greats excel at various trips thats what seperates them from just being Great at one trip! Try again SeabirdII!
Your criteria for all time greatness is recognised throughout the world as the criteria to establish greatness? Haha, delusional. And, Chief Singer would have given Abernant a run over 6f? Just shows your level of horse racing knowldege really. There are quite a few pre-war triple crown winners who are hardly mentioned in the same vein as Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, who yet failed to get the Guineas and Derby distance respectively.
The criteria for all time greats is in the term itself i.e. whether they are resist the test of time and are still talked about in glowing terms by future generations, just like we are talking about Abernant, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave in this thread decades after their racing career. That’s how you recognise an all-time great, and whether you like it or not, future generations will be talking about Frankel in this very same way. All time great not all distance great, son!
Frankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Deeman
Not speedy enough? Really? Dream Ahead was arguably the best sprinter in Europe last season, and if anything, he did not seem to have enough speed to handle Frankel in their two confrontations. And, Dream Ahead is certainly no average horse! And, Canford Cliffs an average horse? Haha! And, Excelebration, Nathaniel, Immortal Verse are certainly no average horses either! As a matter of fact, three of the horses mentioned got the better of Goldikova last year, who is probably the only top class miler in Europe Frankel did not meet.
All those blinkered
Frankel
fans imagine this then! He wins by his usual 4 lengths tomorrow with Excelebration chasing him home in 2nd,he then does exactly the same in the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot Then Henry runs him in the Coral Eclipse and he runs out of puff behind
Twice Over
of all horses! DISASTER!The so called Greatest horse in the world doesn’t just lose that tag he drops down the All time greatest horse list by at least 20 places! back to a mile for the Sussex stakes and he beats Excelebration again for the 6th time! Its going to happen because Henry knows that to get the credibility the horse needs as a Great HE HAS TO WIN OVER FURTHER! Henry knows his style of running just wont let him do that,tomorrows a big big day to find out if the ‘New Stronger better settled Beast’ really has changed because if he is going to be stepped up in trip he has too!
How about you try to answer the arguments put forward above your post instead of inducing illusionary arguments. As I said, your criteria for all-time greatness is completely erroneous. Your criteria of winning at different distances would have meant horses like Abernant and Tudor Minstrel should not be considered as all time greats, nor should Black Caviar as an all-time aussie great. The reality is Abernant was stepped up to the Guineas and Tudor Minstrel to the Derby, yet both failed. But eh, who cares? Abernant = All Time Great, Tudor Minstrel = All Time Great, and rightly so.
‘Frankel’ is the best Miler I have seen,he’s certainly not the best Racehorse I have seen as that goes to the legendary
Dancing Brave
followed by the wonder mare
Pebbles
these 2 won over a 1m, 11/4m and a 11/2m.If ‘Frankel’ can do the same then and only then can he be described as an all time great!
Yet, the man who owned Dancing Brave says Frankel is the best he’s ever owned. I would guess he should be well placed to speak out on this matter. Anyway, I don’t need to look at distances and handicapping equations to recognise an all time great when I see one. I would far rather trust my eyes and brain than some dodgy distance criteria which would have the ludicrous pretension of ruling out Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, or even Black Caviar among others, as all time greats.
And, Chantal Sutherland times her Vanity Fair photoshoot perfectly for this thread.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2r5b8ci.png
Anyone reckon Frankel would still refuse to settle if she was on the pacemaker?
Video of the shoot! http://m.vanityfair.com/video/2012/05/1616261695001
,easy to blame an injury when connections knew he would struggle to get home in all three.I suppose old SeabirdII rates
Geezus!