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Semantics Drone…
Not really. Semantics is the study of meaning. Velocity and acceleration have a different meaning, and the difference is of considerable importance when considering the merits of racehorses
‘Turn of foot’ and ‘flying at the finish’ sound great and flatter but are probably two of the most overused and incorrectly applied terms in racing
‘Staying on’ dull and unflattering by comparison but oft times more accurate
There again you may be right
Quote –
"That was the implication. Hypothetically, if the race was ran again tomorrow, would you price Encke up as favourite?"
Given the same conditions Superman, if they met again in six weeks time I’d make Camelot favourite. Due to him having better form in the past (English Derby). However, I’d probably back Encke, as the criticism of Joseph has (imo) been over-played… Indicating Encke would probably be offered at a better price than he deserves.
Value Is EverythingLike someone said,Joseph rode a nice race he just got his tactics all wrong.Does that make sense to you?You see with a horse you must keep his momentum going.You cannot ask him to move and then say not now!Twice Camelot had his momentum stopped by the jockey looking for nonexisting gaps.So when he said go it was like a standing start to catch the winner.The horse was confused.
Cheers Drone and Crepello; they’ve shown that footage a couple of times and each time I’ve been taken with that little terrier of a horse trying to catch the great Nijinsky [even though it could be argued that Nijinsky wasn’t quite at his best on Leger day]. Glad he went on to win the following year! Although it does tend to prove that not many people remember ‘the runner up’.
Quote –
"That was the implication. Hypothetically, if the race was ran again tomorrow, would you price Encke up as favourite?"
Given the same conditions Superman, if they met again in six weeks time I’d make Camelot favourite. Due to him having better form in the past (English Derby). However, I’d probably back Encke, as the criticism of Joseph has (imo) been over-played… Indicating Encke would probably be offered at a better price than he deserves.
Hi Ginge. That was Bachellor Halls comment that i was quoting. My argument was that it was as much a victory by Al Zarooni over Aidan O’brien as it was a so called bad ride from Joseph, because he was riding to instructions. He(Mohamad A.Z) also forsaw the race unfolding at the pace it did. Bachellor then went on to make comparisons between my saying Aidan being at fault to a degree is like blaming a boxing promoter for a boxers performance. Well what can i say ?….there’s a difference between being a boxing trainer and a boxing promoter.
Semantics Drone…
Not really. Semantics is the study of meaning. Velocity and acceleration have a different meaning, and the difference is of considerable importance when considering the merits of racehorses
‘Turn of foot’ and ‘flying at the finish’ sound great and flatter but are probably two of the most overused and incorrectly applied terms in racing
‘Staying on’ dull and unflattering by comparison but oft times more accurate
There again you may be right
To be honest I couldn’t give the proverbial ‘flying…’ how we describe it. For one horse to be ‘flying’ its opponent has to be running more slowly. One horse moving more quickly at the end of a race than the others is IMO fairly described as ‘flying’.
Which horse do you think was travelling the fastest at the death of the race the winner or the second?
Didn’t look a good ride to me – I continue to be amazed that a ruthless business like Coolmore employ the lad as Nr 1.
I cannot think of one Joseph has ‘pinched’ for Coolmore. But there have already been plenty he has cost the company, today the comfortably the most expensive error the lad will ever make.Absolutely right. Totally agree.
I know they say blood is thicker than water but young cherub-faced Joseph is clocking up an alarming series of big-race blunders and misjudgements.I can’t believe Coolmore is still using him as its number one, apart from the fact that he is Aidan’s son. He’s becoming a liability and shouldn’t be used as much as he is.
I hope this latest embarrassment helps seal his fate and that he is replaced as soon as possible.
All this talk but no answers about what Joseph could have done……..Andy said it all when he said non existent gaps although he doesn’t realize how close to the mark he was.
There wasn’t one opportunity arose for Joseph in the home straight that he could have taken before he made his move. He could have came wide but even before the home turn he had a horse on his outer so he would have to have to have asked his mount to quicken and cut across in front or lose ground by taking a pull to go round him. I reckon 90% of jockeys would have waited.
The fact is he had 2 furlongs to catch the winner and never looked like he was ever going to get there. It’s not like he shot past the winner after the line so all this talk about him flying is BS. The winner would not have been as easy to pass when eyeballed as some suggest he would. Sure he was slowing but then he had used his energy up to get a lead. Camelot was the finisher but how close was he too hitting the wall? Another 50 yds, 500 yds? who knows? People always assume if a horse hits trouble and finishes fast he would have won but it’s not always the case.
Sometimes they use up so much energy getting to a leader that the leader finds a little bit more and goes on again. Seen it a million times.
In this case I would have to agree Camelot would have probably won by a small margin but the slating of the jockey is miles over the top.
At least those of you who are slating him talk us through the race and tell us how he should have ridden him,
Very easy to whine and say the guy rode a bad race and not back up what you are saying by explaining what he should have done.
Who’s first?
I do agree with those who say the blame placed on Joseph’s shoulders is completely exaggerated.
Tbh, I would sooner place the blame at Aiden’s doorstep than Joseph (even though I guess that doesn’t make much sense as they probably live in the same place). I don’t think the lay-off he had was ideal preparation for a 2900m race. My personal opinion is that had they scrape off the Irish Derby and went for the Voltigeur as previously planned, Camelot may well have run into immortality today. But, that of course, we will never know.
Aiden O’Brien has come out with some pearlers in his time but his post race interview after this years St Leger takes the biscuit,I’ve watched it a dozen times now and it still makes no sense at all,his body language spoke volumes at just how much this defeat bothered him. Now if it transpires that
Camelot
was a sick horse then I can understand his frustration as on paper he should have travelled like he did with his tail out and his head held high which is typical ‘Montjeu’ but he should have quickened up and strode clear………..Or should he? His collateral form doesn’t shout from the Songsheet anymore,perhaps he’s just not quite as Good as some thought! Fair play to connections for testing him though,I’ll give credit to anyone who pushes boundaries,unlike those who like to keep safe inside them eh?
I’m sorry but I can’t for the life of me see how JOB has ridden a bad race. If you pause it at the 2 pole Camelot is 1-10. (anyone know what he was trading on Betfair?). JOB asks him to go after the leader and there is nothing. Enke takes three lengths out of him and Camelot stays on resolutely but he was never getting there. If the horse had been as good as many thought he should have won.
Sea Moon last year – that was a bad ride. Today the jockey simply didnt have the horse under him.
As many have pointed out Camelot’s form has not worked out and he was vulnerable to an improver (although I must admit I never thought it would be Enke!) I feel sorry for connections who deserve credit for giving it a go. I don’t think I have ever seen AOB looking quite so upset – his "listens" were bordering on Tourette’s in that interview.
M Al Zarooni was my trainer to watch this year and he has let me down most of the year but I am pleased for him today. The winner deserves more praise than he is going to get as he has clearly improved a lot and has shown a good turn of foot. I hope he goes on to prove that this was no fluke next year.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
All this talk but no answers about what Joseph could have done……..Andy said it all when he said non existent gaps although he doesn’t realize how close to the mark he was.
There wasn’t one opportunity arose for Joseph in the home straight that he could have taken before he made his move. He could have came wide but even before the home turn he had a horse on his outer so he would have to have to have asked his mount to quicken and cut across in front or lose ground by taking a pull to go round him. I reckon 90% of jockeys would have waited.
The fact is he had 2 furlongs to catch the winner and never looked like he was ever going to get there. It’s not like he shot past the winner after the line so all this talk about him flying is BS. The winner would not have been as easy to pass when eyeballed as some suggest he would. Sure he was slowing but then he had used his energy up to get a lead. Camelot was the finisher but how close was he too hitting the wall? Another 50 yds, 500 yds? who knows? People always assume if a horse hits trouble and finishes fast he would have won but it’s not always the case.
Sometimes they use up so much energy getting to a leader that the leader finds a little bit more and goes on again. Seen it a million times.
In this case I would have to agree Camelot would have probably won by a small margin but the slating of the jockey is miles over the top.
At least those of you who are slating him talk us through the race and tell us how he should have ridden him,
Very easy to whine and say the guy rode a bad race and not back up what you are saying by explaining what he should have done.
Who’s first?
He should have won the race. Hows that?
All Coolmore’s recent Nr 1’s stole Group 1’s – if you wish me to list the races I feel were won by sheer jockey’s nouse i will. JOB hasn’t done this, and won’t do this.
Not his fault – who would turn down the chance? But he isn’t currently good enough. Coolmore have dropped the ball for once and it’s cost them the Triple Crown.
Ginger – to avoid discussing the definition of "flying at the finish" for the next 6 months, how about admitting the clear fact that Camelot was asked to "go" too late? 100 yards earlier and he would surely have gotten there.
If you like PC, we could discuss the definition of "go".
Having made the decision to go up the inner, Joseph had to wait for a gap before "go"ing. Had Camelot got the ride Encke did, it is possible Camelot would’ve won. But it’s not certain, only 50/50 in my opinion.A lot has been made of Camelot’s "flying at the finish", but Encke showed at least an equally good turn of foot to go three lengths clear in a short space of time. So it is obvious that having made that greater effort Encke would at some later stage be losing ground on something who hadn’t yet gone for everything. Had Camelot gone for home earlier using his wings ("flying") it’s quite possible Encke could’ve used his turn of foot to get up.
In my opinion Camelot was below form (for whatever reason) today, just like he was in the Irish Derby. Difference in the two performances being this time another horse proved capable of taking advantage.
An excellent substantiation of your point of view my friend. Not a view I share, but well put none the less.
I just got in and watched the race on RP.site and YouTube, so, not great picture quality but two things struck me. Camelot carried his head very low for the first half of the race. He raced in similar style last time at the Curragh but showed no signs of that at Epsom. I cannot see clearly enough the footage at Newmarket to comment on his head carriage there. In the RP Trophy there were some signs of it though not nearly as pronounced as today.
His leg change as they turn into the straight looked very exaggerated (RP footage). Asked for a serious effort he throws his head up and out, becomes badly unbalanced and remains so for quite some time, hanging slightly under the whip. His reaction to pressure in the Derby was even more pronounced – hanging quite badly although I was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because of the severe camber.
When he did get balanced at Epsom, he put the race to bed quickly. Today he looked to be changing legs trying to close on the winner, never really looking balanced. Given his courage in the Guineas, and, to some extent in both Derby wins, I find it hard to accept he is ungenuine. I suspect something physical is troubling him.
I just got in and watched the race on RP.site and YouTube, so, not great picture quality but two things struck me. Camelot carried his head very low for the first half of the race. He raced in similar style last time at the Curragh but showed no signs of that at Epsom. I cannot see clearly enough the footage at Newmarket to comment on his head carriage there. In the RP Trophy there were some signs of it though not nearly as pronounced as today.
His leg change as they turn into the straight looked very exaggerated (RP footage). Asked for a serious effort he throws his head up and out, becomes badly unbalanced and remains so for quite some time, hanging slightly under the whip. His reaction to pressure in the Derby was even more pronounced – hanging quite badly although I was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because of the severe camber.
When he did get balanced at Epsom, he put the race to bed quickly. Today he looked to be changing legs trying to close on the winner, never really looking balanced. Given his courage in the Guineas, and, to some extent in both Derby wins, I find it hard to accept he is ungenuine. I suspect something physical is troubling him.
As you will have gathered I thoguht it was a below average pilot job – but Camelot’s changing of the legs reminded me very much of another Derby Winner, North Light, in the Brigadier.
I would have sworn he didn’t like the ground, but the Derby stroll says different of course.
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