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Have to say, the Ascot Gold Cup of 2013 was very good. Johnny Murtagh, in the last year of his racing career, as usual, is brilliant at Royal Ascot, and won races for various trainers. He was within a nose of winning the Gold Cup for Mullins with Simenon. The English fawned and fell over themselves in superlatives with HRM The Queen’s filly running a blinder
2014 edition had some drama. The build up was pretty good. You had Estimate back for more, the question about whether St Leger Winner Leading Light become another Yeats, and a relatively unknown dual purpose trainer from Cork suggesting that he would offer ham to The Queen from the English Markets in Cork if his wonderful filly won. (The Queen had made her historic visit to Ireland at that point). Missunited ran brilliantly but it set it up for the other two fine stayers . It was one of Joseph O’Brien’s finest moments in the saddle in my opinion.
The Sprints tend to be great drama. In 2013 you had Willy Sole Power going head to head with Shea Shea again after Meydan but I think his 2014 win was much more impressive (and his Nunthrope
) Lynam and the Power family doing the double in 2014 was great too.Sheikh Mohammed hires people but promptly ignores them.
Who has he ignored?
Jim Bolger for a start. Jim told everyone of his concerns about Dawn Approach getting the trip at the Derby. When it all failed miserably, Jim had a somewhat “nothing to do with me , I told you so look” on him
Then of course, the decision to undo all his early success by basically shafting successful public trainers like Cecil and co and handing almost everything to a then relatively unknown trainer Bin Suroor
I don’t think anyone is saying that O’Brien is anything other than an excellent trainer and horseman, but for a man who hates giving interviews, I say please stop. It’s just not that interesting, and that’s the problem.
Gets criticized for giving interviews and what he says (says nothing, that is true) but if he did what Stoutey does, he would be criticized again. Hope ITV heed that advice at Royal Ascot
Still, ya can’t beat a bit of slagging off Aidan when he says a certain horse is “the best ever….” or “most imposing ever….”
Listen, obviously ,he already has a bit of a cult status, at least in Ireland, with his O’Brienisms. Surprised no comics haven’t mimicked him yet
O’Brien keeps telling everyone it’s a team effort, that he has the best staff and the best horses, and I believe him, yet the press keep looking for more.
As you note, they are the best in the world. Fair point about the media, but it would be wrong of them to not try to find something newRemember 2015? Aidan was clearly having issues with people with the whole Gleneagles affair. There was talk of a rift with the lads. He sent the media into a tissy when he was unusually emotional talking about how he might take a back seat in a few years and let the family take over. (He had just had one of his most successful Royal Ascots, Ryan Moore broke the record for most wins) Obviously, the lads brought Aidan up to the corporate box for a lemonade and hang sandwich and got him to dispel those silly notions of retirement. He was pretty snappy after the QEII that year when he clearly did not want Gleneagles to run. There is plenty of stories surrounding Ballydoyle at the end of 2014 disastrous end to the season with Joseph making a hash of things in two high profile races with Australia and Gleneagles in France and talk about Joseph going on as a jumps jockey with little success (he had a fine 2015 as a flat jockey funny enough when Ryan Moore got injured)
All we learn is that his attention to detail is noteworthy, and there’s a statue of Nijinsky (and a few others) in around 500 lovely acres in Co. Tipp. Why do the press have to keep trying to make a story out of it?
They have nothing to say and that they have to fill the pages of their papers?
They could try looking at how O’Brien has struggled to keep his top jocks like Kinane and Murtagh, both of whom left at the peak of their powers . Kinane went on to one of his greatest ever seasons in 2009. Murtagh was a revelation in his final year in 2013 and would have ended the year on a high by ridding in the Arc on a fancied Andre Wohler, Novelist, if the horse did not get ill. I would also include Fallon but he did not help himself. Or ask about the clear nepotism going on with his kids as jocks and how the family,cough, wife, was running the show at Ballydoyle (see his interview at Royal Ascot in 2015). We have seen Colm O’Donoghue been useful in the US and is doing great for Jessica Harrington, a lot better than Fran Berry did (and he was decent) Wayne Lordan is a fine jockey yet his prize for winning the 1000 Guineas? Packed off to Haydock for a Group 2 (it was a winnable one on paper to be fair) and no rides in the Irish Guineas weekend. If he kind of nonsense that went on in 2014 and 2015 happened again, someone like David O’Meara might get a call from one of “the lads”. Who knows? Maybe even another NH man like Willie Mullins?
But, the media would never do that as there would be war. O’Brien knows to say absolutely nothing. Ya would look silly being boastful or acknowledging how great he is. He already has gotten stick for the times that he did big up horses and they flopped.
His win % is on a par with other trainers mentioned in this thread, so he’s operating totally as he should be
How many Group 1s where said trainers winning, a year, globally?
His employers give him specific targets, and the raw material to reach them.
Godolpin do the same with their in house trainer and other public trainers. They even spend more money on horsesHe does not let them down. Knowing his horses’ and staff’s names is not particularly noteworthy, and if Jim Bolger really said he was the only person he was sorry to see leave, that must make a lot of people feel very good about themselves.
Jim Bolger has had many a well known person work for him. Paul Carberry, Seamie Heffernan, Peter Scudamore,Ted Durcan, Aidan , David Wachman, Willie Mullins, David Wachman, Paul Nolan, AP McCoy…..
Not all of them left with fond memories of the man, but he “did them no harm” and none of them play down Bolger’s role in their life. Bolger’s comments might say more about him that Aidan ,lol. ” there’s a right way and a wrong way, but if you want to keep onside then there’s only the one way: the Bolger way.”
and let Ballydoyle get on with what they do very well, but which is, frankly, not that spine tingling any more (not the trainer’s fault).
Odd feeling to have. Besides , it is not like a 1-2-3 in the Arc is done everyday. If it was a British trainer, he would probably have got an OBE for it.
Some Coolmore homebreds (bred by various Coolmore entities) are put through the sales ring with the intention of being bought back, sometimes to advertise the stallion, sometimes to set up or break up partnerships, etc.
They include some of the horses mentioned above:Highland Reel
Order of St George
Mastercraftsman
Leading Light
High Chaparral
AlexandrovaAlso, just to clarify, Galileo was co-bred by Coolmore and the Tsui family.
On Galileo , yes, Tsui sold their share, I did raise doubt about whether that was public sale
As for the others that you mentioned, yes, that is absolutely true, they tend to have an “understanding” with the breeders. They have a knack for this, as when you consider the fee that they get for nomination (which is what? about 350k? enough to buy a decent horse at the sales), the price of the purchase is considerably less when that is factored in . Pretty clever? Also ensures that many Galileos are sold at big prices and that gets good publicity. They are marketing geniuses
However, that still does not mean that other bidders are prevented from taking a chance and trying to out bid them, considering the record that Galileo has and the reasonably prospects that the said horse might get that money back . They might still fail as we know that they are prepared to move mountains to get their horse and boy they have the money. Many of those horses were sold at a reasonable price
(how can anyone say that ? but in the sport of kings it is peanuts) even in those days, compared the price that other horses were sold for at those sales . It is not like “the lads” are hidding at the sales. It is not hard to spot their snazzy Coolmore jackets and baseball caps with the latest great race horse adorning on the said hat.So when you see them getting busy at the auction, ya know that they fancy it (of course, they have spent a million on many a horse that did little ) 
So Aiden was supported by JP (one of if not the biggest NH hunt owners going) in his early days
Mother of god, will you do some basic research.
JP McManus was not the big hitter, as an owner, in the early 1990’s that he became in the 2000’s, when O’Brien wound up his NH work (stayed on till Istrabraq until 2001. You have to take into account what a horrible country Ireland was, economically in the 1980’s while Britain was doing alright under Thatcher (well, the rich people anyway)
This is the number of wins and rides JP’s horses had in Britain , where it really matters : 88/90 3 wins/14 rides, 89/90 0 wins/16 rides, 1990/1991 5 wins/13 rides, 1991/1992 2 wins/7 rides, 1992/1993 1 win / 19 rides, 1992/1993 1 win/19 rides, 1993/1994 2 wins 7 rides, 1994/1995 3 wins/12 rides, 1995/1996 1 win / 17 rides, 1996/1997 3 wins / 24 rides, 1997/1998 6 wins /43 rides, 1998/1999 7 wins / 52 rides and in 1999/2000 8 wins 67 rides. By 2000, JP relocates alot of resources to Britain and guys like John Joe O’Neill (who had been with JP since JP’s first step into owning horses) are patronized along with Henderson and a then up and coming Nicholls
In Ireland, during this period , things are much better. 1988/1989 0 wins/4 rides, 1989/1990 3 wins / 13 rides, 1990/1991 3 wins 16 rides, 1991/1992 6 wins/30 rides, 1992/1993 9 wins / 54 rides, 1993/1994 16 wins/ 83 rides, 1994/1995 15 wins/87 rides, 1995/1996 28 wins / 103 rides, 1996/1997 22 wins / 129 rides, 1997/1998 23 wins / 194 rides, 1998/1999 33 wins 234 rides, 1999/00 40 wins 258 rides
JP McManus first Irish Title was in 1995/1996!!!! He would be champion owner in Ireland all the way up until 2009/2010 when Gigginstown started to become dominant on the Irish scene.
In Ireland, before JP won his Irish title in 1995/1996 he was using Edward O’Grady and Arthur Moore as his main trainer, both of whom were champion trainers. The Year that he won his first Irish Title, he started using Aidan O’Brien, who actually boosted JP’s win record . In 1995/1996, Aidan O’Brien ran 4 horses and won 9 with 18 rides, his best trainer. By 1996/1997, Christy Roache was brought in and he got some fine horses, O’Brien still won for him
Aidan O’Brien had been Irish National Hunt Champion trainer in 1993/1994, 1994/1995, 1995/1996 , 1996/1997, 1997/1998
JP’s first superstar in Britain was Istrabraq. Aidan was already a group 1 winner in Ireland and Britain
Aidan O’Brien’s first two titles were achieved without a single JP McManus owned horse!!!! He won his third with little to no help from JP. JP came to Aidan, not Aidan going to JP. Aidan was already a champion trainer!!! You could not be more wrong!
before he joined Coolmore (at that time one of the best breeding operation and since then the best period) and has consistently bagged top honours
Yes, but bred for other owners .
Consistently? Vincent O’Brien had not won a British classic since the 2000 Guineas in 1984, and Derby in 1982.In Ireland it was slightly more respective with his last Irish classic being the 2000 Guineas & Irish St in 1988 and last Irish Derby in 1985. O’Brien retired in 1994.
“Coolmore” first true home bred superstar stallion was Saddlers Wells. He was winning classics alright, but not for Coolmore. Vincent was using Golden Fleece, Be My Guest and the usual purchases from the US
You can have the arsenal, but you still need the trainer(s)!!!! Look at Sheikh Mo and the Godolphin transition, grand for a while then it went belly up by the late 1990’s. Your ignorance is laughable in your attempt to make light of Aidan O’Brien’s achievements. Coolmore success on the track had dried up big time before Aidan O’Brien came in.That stats don’t lie.
whilst getting the choice of the best Coolmore stock available and yet you believe that no other trainer given that set of circumstances would be as successful……ok.
On a consistent basis ? for over 20 years? No and the evidence is there for all to see.
Cecil failed, Stoute failed……… Sheikh Mohammed and Godolphin failed to maintain the consistency that helped them dominate the sport from 1985-1996 and it can’t have been all down to the lack of quality in the trainer. Cecil was still winning big races after Sheikh Mo left him, and his downfall was coming when you look at how he was dipping under his usual 100 plus win a season record .
Someone like Stoute does not become a bad trainer overnight. He won 5 titles in the 2000’s , his last one in 2009 but he won the Arc and Derby in 2010.His win rate is still rock solid , and that is plenty of evidence and support for all other big owners to pledge their trust on him. Coolmore can’t and won’t win every Group 1 in Britain
They had the pick over every major money Lord in town in Britain. Jesus, Paul Cole was Champion trainer in 1991, where is he now? Champions tend to build on that success.
O’Brien’s story is similar to that of Andre Fabre, both came from National Hunt backgrounds. Both dominate their country’s racing, yet, despite Fabre having EVERY major owner-breeder as a client, including Coolmore, what has he done outside France?
If Aiden were to stop training for Coolmore (will never happen)
We shall seehe knows he would be in for a culture shock
So, who will take his place at Ballydoyle, ? Remains to be seen how good Galileo’s progeny are as Stallions, the sport goes in circlesbecause whilst many of the top owners would indeed be looking to team up with him he would not have that exclusive access to the best stock
Exclusive?
Many of Coolmore’s best stock was BOUGHT AT PUBLIC SALES. Open for everyone else to bid! So, no, they were were NOT exclusive .Granted some of their very best were fully home bred but if they were solely reliant on home breds they would not be as dominant .Galileo was sold to them, but, I don’t think that was by public sale.
Australia: Galileo x Ouija Board was sold at Tattesalls 525,000 Guineas in 2012, and she had not produced anything of note before going to Galileo , so it was a risk buying him. Highland Reel was bought at Tattersals for 460,000 Guineas.Order of St George was bought in the US for $550,000 . Montjeu was not home bred and he was sold to Tabor (not sure whether that was via public sales or not) .Hurricane Run was bought at sales . Fame and Glory was bought at public sales. They bought Camelot at the sales for 525,000 Guineas (and bought his older half sister the year before, and she did nothing on the track) Leading Light was bought for 520,000 guineas at Tattersalls, Same with St Nichollas Abbey and High Chaparral. Mastercraftsman I believe was sold at public sales (could be wrong on that one), Alexandrova was definitely bought at the public sales, as was George Washington and Treasure Beach.
Coolmore also bought a load of non Coolmore bred and raced broodmares at Public Sales, ie open to anyone else to bid.Most well known one was the 6 million that they spent on the Irish Oaks winner of 2013
Aidan O’Brien and his wife bred Rock of Gibraltar .They bought So You Think, and anyone else could have put a bid in.
They could have bought Motivator, a son of Montjeu, for peanuts at the sales , and Authorised for 400k plus.
When you look at the kind of money spent by other owners on horses ; eg the unraced Frankel x Finsceal Beo filly bred by Michael Ryan and sold for over a million quid, or the other Frankel filly, Toulifaut
, who cost 1.9 million quid, you will see that there are and there were plenty of owners not called Godolpin or Coolmore that are more than prepared to depart with a lot of money.that he enjoys now as those owners have historically spread their horses between various trainers
Coolmore have and had spread their horses over to various other trainers like David Wachman, Andre Fabre, Hammond in Frace and O’Callaghan in Britain. Coolmore still send horses to Stoute and Gosden. When you are getting CONSISTENT success with one trainer, it is wise to support them
Any owner who puts all his eggs into one basket, ie retaining one main trainer leaves himself exposed if that trainer has a poor season due to something light a virus being rampant in his stable. We saw how things didn’t always work out of for the Aga Khan when he hired John Oxx as is main trainer for Britain and Ireland, at least not over a period of 20 years (most of his were based between two or three in France) Who is seriously challenging Stoute as the main trainer for Highclere, Cheveley, Ballymacool and The Queen?Things haven’t gone too great for Godolpin with their heavy patronage of Bin Suroor, has it? No surprise that things have picked up for them since they went back using Public trainers (all due to John Ferguson, which he hasn’t got credit for)
and would continue to do so – oh and good luck if you think Sheikh Mo would have any involvement whatsoever with him after his own historical spats with Coolmore.
The Sheikh have proven time and time again to be an idiot. Anyone with sense and is comfortable financially would be bonkers to get involved with Godolpin. Gosden won’t need to rely on them for Championship Titles , thankfully.
Oh and please don’t make this an English against Irish thing as there is no place for that on this forum
It is blatant!
I have total respect for all that Aiden has achieved in his career to date (long may it continue)
Your absolute and laughable ignorance about the man and his achievements suggest otherwise. Your statement is devoid of basic fundamental facts, which are rather easily and quickly verified
but I just believe that other trainers are equally capable a replicating what he has done had they been given the same opportunity he was.
How many more opportunities does John Gosden need? His success was relatively quick in the US, he came back to Britain as a somebody. He is an excellent communicator and networker , is respected on and off the track and has the telephone number of every major breeder and owner in the book. They have access to funds to bid against Coolmore for these Galileo’s that go to the sales , Gosden has already proven himself with Galileo progeny. Where were all the other newer owners when Cecil was going under the 100 win a season mark and before his huge slump? Hadn’t he done enough and was championed by racing people by then to be given a chance?
It is one thing to rise to the top, it is a complete and utter different kettle of fish to stay there.
I fully appreciate from your detailed posts that you don’t share the same view on this matter and I will simply leave it there.
You shouldn’t be allowed to get away with fundamental factual errors though
It is one thing to call on opinion, and another to have an ill informed oneFor the record, Gosden is my FAVOURITE trainer. I love the way Stoute trains horses, the right way. I am angry that Luca Cumani has been thrown to the dust bin of history after what he has achieved. I get far more satisfaction when Jim Bolger wins major races. And Cecil, well, he is an undisputed legend and sorely missed
What I meant by he didn’t have to struggle through the ranks was to simply point out that when he joined Ballydoyle in 1996 (just three short years into his training career) all the tools he needed were already there ready and waiting (i.e. unlike most new trainers that have to cultivate new owners to come join the yard and go through the trial and error of buying horses at the sales to populate said yard)
He had done enough in his short training career, as a flat and national hunt trainer to be sent to Ballydoyle . Istrabaq was a star for him. He was winning races left right and center in Ireland in National Hunt and had support from JP. He came highly regarded by Jim Bolger, who people tend to heed when he talks
In 1995, Aidan O’Brien , in his third full season trainer flat horses, and before Ballydoyle won 76 races out of 529 rides in Ireland.
The horses were mostly owned by the wife or the Crowley family, who were mostly National Hunt people. You can count on one had the amount of horses that Magnier sent to him for flat racing. None of them were highly rated. He had no fancy owners like Smurfitt for the flat horses and not many fancy well bred horses of the day, some of them were dual purpose horses. He had a horse was placed in for 2nd at Royal Ascot. He won a few races that would now be listed and Group 3s!
In 1995, the big hitters in Ireland were John Oxx who had Ridgewood Pearl and Dermott Weld. Oxx won 99 races with only 335 races but he had quality and the Aga Khan! Oxx also had Sheikh Mo who was the champion owner in Ireland in 1995. Weld, the regular champion by money and wins in Ireland had 79 wins with 555 rides.Weld had the support of Al Maktoum, Smurfitt and several American owners and of course Moyglare not to mention having Mick Kinane as your jockey. In other words, with weaker arsenal, O’Brien was already dining with the big boys for wins in a season! All while also continuing to win Group 1s and Group 2’s in England and Ireland in the National Hunt and being the Irish Champion in 1995/1996 (and dominating in 1994/1995)
Prior to 1995, O’Brien had already won a handful of Group 3s in the flat.48 wins from 346 flat rides
So,no, it was not handed to him! He went to Balydoyle with an outstanding CV as a horse trainer
This is quite clearly borne out by the fact that the very next season he trained his first classic winner and also become champion trainer for the first time – fair play to him as he has taken the opportunity given to him and totally ran all over the place with it rewriting the record books (much like Vincent did) along the way. Although to me it must be a lot easier just adding extensions to an already structually sound house rather than having to build the whole lot yourself from the ground up.
In 1996 and 1997 he still was training for his other trainers along with Magnier & Co! They weren’t bagging the big British races in either years bar a Coventry and a Racing Post Trophy , so it was not immediate success in Britain.
I personally believe that if the likes of say a Stoute, Gosden, Varian, Botti or any other up and coming trainer were given the exact same backing 3 yrs into their own careers that they would have also had the same level of success.
If my aunt had balls , she would be my uncle.
You forget on major thing. Aidan’s success has remained CONSISTENT and he keeps breaking records, globally. If Aidan fell out with Coolmore tomorrow morning, he would have Godolpin, Aga Khan, Juddmonte, Al Maktoum ringing him up. With his own money and know how in breeding (He bred Qualify an Oaks winner) himself and the wife would probably do a Jim Bolger and breed and train a few of his own
Stoute is more or less finished and has not won a classic since 2010. Cecil went 6 years without a Group 1 and even went a season with winning only 12 races!
As for a start in life ….do some basic research
With Gosden, you are talking complete and utter nonsense!
For a start, he was the son of a trainer, O’Brien only knew about horses because his family didn’t have a tractor and horses were the substitute. Secondly , Gosden had being an Assistant trainer to Vincent O’Brien and Noel Murless. Hardly a burden! He learned from the Very best and was around when they won classics!.Aidan had Jim Bolger, who while an impressive trainer, just ain’t the same. In America, he was an Asssistant to multiple Group 1 trainer, including a Classic winner, Tommy Doyle. He was the Bobby Frankel of turf racing in the West, in his pomp
Gosden, who took out a licence in 1979 was not long getting Juddmonte horses in the US!He was wining Group 1s for them by 1983. He was a MULTIPLE Group 1,2 and 3 winning trainer in the US before his return to the UK, he even won the Breeders Cup Mile in the 1984. Not a bad start, don’t you think, considering he went to the US with next to nothing money wise and despite his dad being a trainer.
By 1982,his third season, he had won 48 races in 244 starts in the US and cracking the million dollar mark, 66 wins from 380 in 1983 making 2.5 million and for the rest of his time in the US until 1989 he was never below 50 wins a season, even making 80 wins in one season, and winning at least 2 million dollars in prize money each year. He did not have to worry about the costs of running his own stable as it was all done at the track. He was not coming back to Britain as some no body! I think he was specifically encouraged to come back to Britain by Sheikh Mohammed!!!
His second season , and really, his first full season bedded in, he won over 80 wins and for the next couple of years that figure remained the same with an outstanding strike rate over over 22 %. Gosden never saw his win count go under 50 wins a season / year in all that time and was rarely under the 1 million quid mark
By 1992 he was a double Group 1 winner, in 1993 he won the Irish St Leger, an Irish Classic and a few other European Group 1 races and well over 100 races.He was a big Royal Ascot winner by 1994. He won the Epsom Derby in 1997.
In 1989, his first season in the UK , Gosden counted on Sheikh Mohammed
, during his glorious maroon and white days as his main supporter . He also enjoyed patronage of Charles St George and Juddmonte. By 1990, Hamadan Al Maktoum was also patronizing him.He even had Sangster by his third year.So, as for Gosden, while he might not have got the horses that Cecil got from the Sheikh, it was hardly a poor start or a lack of opportunities !!!! Gosden has top owners from Day 1 in the UK
As for Varian, how many horses does he have in training? Isn’t he suppose to have a huge team? Hardly in a dump of a stable either.His first season was 2011. Bear in mind, that in Ireland, for over 30 years all someone like Aidan has to worry about is whether Oxx, Weld or Bolger had better horses. In Britain there are more trainers . Varian was a Group 1 winning trainer in his very first season! He won 2 more Group 1s in 2012 and a classic in 2014, his fourth season. He never saw a year that he won less than 50 races so far. He is not struggling! 2015 was his only season without a Group 1 win so far. Even in his first season as a trainer he had the usual Arab owners who are not short for case. Al Maktoum brothers. Today, he has patronage from others like Chevely and even Paul Smith who has access to all of them Coolmore sires
Botti? You joking right? Oh dear oh dear.
There have been a few trainers who had horses transferred to them after Botti , and they were less than complimentary about the state that the said horses were received . Wouldn’t have a donkey with him. Moreover, he comes from a leading racing family in Italy, thus he has connections and money. Training since 2006, those Italian connections were shrewed enough to get him Excelebration by his fourth season in training.He won a Group 3 in his first season in training .His first Group 1 in his third season (in the US no less) Few of the big name breeders have gone near him.
Stoute is the only one that you mentioned that had zero connection to racing before he became a trainer, so his rise is far more impressive. But when he did rise, it was not always consistent. Throughout his career , he has had almost every major owner -breeder back him and he has had no problems fending off O’Brien over the years
Face it, if O’Brien was English ye would be fawning over him . Begrudgery, sad
For me there would be quite a long list of trainers that would be just as successful as Aiden had they been in the lucky position of having the most powerful breeding operating backing them pretty much from day because at the end of the day if you don’t have good horses to train it doesn’t matter how great a trainer you are. Yes breeding is an inexact science but the conveyor belt that is Coolmore means you are that much more likely to get the best horses around to train. The interesting thing will be can Coolmore continue with their dominance once Galileo is retired from covering?????
Personally, I don’t think Aiden has really had to struggle through the ranks of having to train below average/average horses to get to the top of his profession in the same way that the likes of say a Stoute/Gosden/Cecil etc had in their formative days and for that reason I would put him just under the likes of a Vincent O’Brien, Sir Henry Cecil, Sir Michael Stoute & John Gosden – he himself has always stated just how fortunate he has been to be in the position he is in.
At the end of the day are we really trying to say that the likes of a Stoute, Gosden, Varian, Balding, Hannon, Johnston, Fahey & Botti etc wouldn’t be capable of getting the same results as Aiden has had they been in his position?
Really? Never had to struggle?
Saddlers Well was Leading Sire in 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, (and a number of further subsequent years). Caerleon, a horse once trained by Dr Vincent O’Brien was leading sire in 1988 and 1991. Dr O’Brien retired in or around 1994ish . His last British Classic had been in 1982. His last Irish Classic was 1988.One of his last Group 1s was in 1992. Sangster and Niarchos were with Vincent O’Brien right up to the end.
Looking back at the List of leading Sires from 1990-1996, how many of the stallion’s progeny were classic winners? Guess who were the owners of them? They weren’t Coolmore connected trainers! Sheikh Mohammed and his brother were heavily reliant on Saddler’s Well.
Tabor comes in around 1995ish but was winning big races in the US
O’Brien started flat racing or or around 1993 and was making a name for himself in both codes with National Hunt becoming Champion Trainer in Ireland. Magnier sponsored him with horses like Theatreworld while also sponsoring JJ O’Neill.
John Gosden has been patronized by ALL of the major owners in racing and still is . He gets the odd Coolmore reject, but he also gets Godolpin and Shadwell, Chevely, Juddmonte….. Stoute even at his peak had good owners . Fabre in France had/has them ALL bar maybe Aga Khan , all of them have had quiet years. Actually, for the size of his yard, and being one of the truly talented trainers in Britain,and about only one of three currently in training , Gosden has kinda under achieved.He was a flat trainer long before Aidan, and despite having a lot of exsposure in the US (where he was successful and Juddmonte’s first US trainer) he has rather underachieved in that country since he came back to to the UK
Sure with Sheikh Mo’s horses and not much competition this statement could be said about yer beloved Henry Cecil
“a long list of trainers that would be just as successful as Aiden had they been in the lucky position of having the most powerful breeding operating backing them pretty much from day”
His success did not last long after Sheikh Mo shipped out and that was before the real explosion of Aidan O’Brien / Coolmore circa 2000/2001.
Sheikh Mo was still ticking along nicely when Bin Suroor was champion trainer, now he is not even Godolpin’s main man anymore (that might change with Ferguson out of the way) Bin Suroor , to be fair to him was winning Group 1s all over the world in his pomp.
“Lucky”?
No luck to it! Aidan is on course to exceed everything that Vincent O’Brien achieved, all within a space of 20 years and he is not even 50!Dubawi and the late Cape Cross were /continue to produce European Classic winners! Just , for different owners. Word was the owner of Golden Horn originally considered selling him but could not get a buyer. Looks like Godolphin bought the wrong Gosden horse. It was another Coolmore bred horse that embarrassed O’Brien and the Lads at the Irish Champion Stakes in 2014
Coolmore has Demi O’Byrne! Bar Green Monkey, the man is bit of a genius in spotting talent at the sales
Everything that they do, including their website, oozes in class. Granted, some of their in your faces sales and hype is a bit meh,
Don’t see Juddmonte doing that . 
. Look at the lengths that they go to in maintaining not just Ballydoyle Stables but their Breeding stable up the road from that, not to mention their National Hunt Stables . They cut and harvest their own feed and are pretty self contained.Okay, I am a big fan of Chapman. I still think he is better interviewing conenctions, at least those who are normally media friendly. Him running around Windsor on a Monday night can be entertaining, better than Space Cadet Bob and Hayley Turner. He was brilliant for most part during the whole Epsom week with the “banter” with the bookies and his good chemistry with Brian Gleeson , who I also like (He got two great interviews with Ryan Moore and Ted Walsh during the Irish Guineas weekend) People won’t take to kindly to his comments during his interview with Mark Johnson. Yes, were were kinda rude but pretty bloody fair and accurate
But, the presentation of the trophy was a bit much. Too X Factory ,”Johnny G” was a little bit much. This is after all , a Classic , where they still wear top hats and tails. You could see Frankie trying to hurry him up, in fairness, he had to ride in the next race
“Balding woman would have asked that question if Andrew had a dozen of the Sheik’s horses in his care.”
Eh, no prizes for assuming that it would be a NO
I always tried to warm to Clair, never liked the hate that she got. I respect her for standing by Frankie when he got into a spot of bother with the auld cocaine (look, it happens)
But the Arcs of 2013 and 2014 were horrendous with her. The first one, the best thing about it was that she avoided by inches being run over by a carriage in the enclosure (ironic as she had just done a documentary about that silly woman’s right waun who threw herself in front of the King’s carriage at a Derby) and , the constant talk about Frankie Dettori not ridding Treve. Frankie had been jocked off but was injured. 2014 was just as bad as she kept reminding the audience that Treve was once ridden by Frankie – very disrespectful of Jarnet .Funny thing is, C4 failed to cover the Group 1 after the Arc, which Frankie won.
Her fawning over people like Cecil (however merited) etc can be a pain too.
O’Brien will have to get creative here and be prepared to travel. I doubt he will have the record in mind, after all, Group 1s in Europe are what count (I refer to the mid season ones, compared to the global races)
I don’t think the ex Wesley Ward’s horse will race much , Ascot maybe that is it. No certainty she will win. July Cup as well? Aidan ain’t exactly an expert in the sprints (I know he has won it) Wachman use to get the sprinters
The Epsom 2nd, who ran a fine race, will probably go for the Irish Pretty Polly and hose up and then try the Nassau. By then Shutter Speed will likely run it that so long as the French Oaks goes well. There is no telling what will happen in the Irish Oaks but Ribblesdale winners don’t have the greatest of records (Bracelet won both in 2014ish)
I am not entirely convinced that Order of St George will win the Gold Cup, but, who has he to beat? Jessie Harrington’s horse?
Highland Reel, to be fair to him, might have another Group 1 in him. For his sake, he should be given a real chance to prepare for the Arc and just run in the King George and maybe York (he will likely be sent to the Breeders and Hong Kong or Japan at the end of the season) I just don’t want to see him in races like the Prince of Wales or Eclipse and the ICS.
Definitely keep Chruchill at a mile, he ought to clean up
He should and will send horses to the Belmont Invitational Derby and the Belmont Oaks which will be on around the time of the Eclipse. Who does he send to Arlington Millions? Deauville and USAR? I can’t really see Somewhat win the Yorkshire Oaks giving weight and she won’t beat the boys in a Group 1 (decent Lockinge performance) perhaps the Beverely Dee – Juddmonte will have two good horses in Arlington for that (Time Test and Suffused)
Absolutely delighted for Nathaniel. He was unlucky to be around at the same time as Frankel as he was a star himself so great that he can get one over on his old nemesis! He has a massive future ahead of him as a stallion and that filly is pure class.
I know that he did not win his trial at Chester, lost to Treasure Beach who was desperately unlucky not to win the Epsom Derby along with the Irish Derby, but, Why didn’t Nathaniel run in the Derby? Was he injured or Gosden chickened out? In hindsight, was it a bad idea considering that he beat Derby/Arc winner Workforce?
This filly will take some beating from 12 furlongs +. Not sure what she will be like on good and good to firm but by god she stays. St Leger? Now that that race, rightfully no longer clashes with the big weekend in Ireland, Doncaster ought to get their fingers out and make St Leger relevant again with the kind of stallions like Nathaniel and Sea The Stars (maybe not so much him) and Champs Elysee (who really wasn’t given much of a chance as a flat stallion at middle -long distances) Beat Hollow is a dual purpose stallion and the new owners of him ought to be enlightened by Wicklow Brave’s ability to win the Irish St Leger.
I keep saying this over and over. The Stayers Triple Crown of Ascot Gold Cup, Goodwood Cup (now a Group 1) and Doncaster Cup should be made relevant. Donny has a nice flat track and could give a 16f horse a chance to get the trip. More prize money. It would help the St Leger card along with the Fillies St Leger
Going to be wet this weekend.
Juddmonte might have a nice weekend. Hard enough to get 1 ready for he big day but they have two live chances
Enable screams stayer. Would she be as speedy? Not sure, but any soft might dim the speed of the other horses.Her auld fella was good on soft ground. Her half sister was a decent enough stayer in France and tackled soft ground, and her mother (by Saddlers Well) won a listed race on soft ground
Natavia – an awful lot to ask of her in only her third race.Unlucky not to have won her maiden , she ran well. Her mother has produced a Group 1 winner, but that was at a mile. Not mad about her running in the Oaks, as she has had so little racing time, Charlton, who is often rather cautious seems to really really fancy her, you could see it in his post race interview when she won the listed race.
Ardross was of course, a head away from doing something that few unlike his own dam sire did (Levoss) win the Ascot Gold Cup, Cadran and Arc (in the same year)
Em, no he wasn’t. Ardross never even ran in the Cadran.
That was badly written, that could have just said Ascot Gold Cup and Arc, Adross campaigned for the Cups in the UK. Levoss won the said three races
Top 5 UK
Ascot – simply the best – have to be in grandstand, at least, for best views. No silver ring.
Cheltenham – day one of the festival every time – great views from the grandstand.
Yarmouth – family holidays and tradition
Sandown – easy to get to, great racing and good views
Lingfield – first track I ever went to and many family days outLeast fav 5 UK
Stratford – viewing is pretty poor unless you pay for the best ticket.
Lingfield AW – again, no where to stand and the AW track is some distance from the turf track.
Newmarket Rowley and July – can never seem to back a winner ane overall a nightmare to get to.
Brighton – only been there once. Everything was ok but the standard of racing was terrible, so very hard to back a winner. Will give it another go and thay may sway my opinion.Top 5 ROW
Meydan – hands down one of the best racecourses I have ever stepped foot on. Not only do you getba lush holiday in Dubai, thw Dubai World Cup is the cherry on top of the cake. If you havent been you must.
Chantilly – visited first time last year for the Arc. Get there early for a good view of the course but the track itself and background scenary is amazing.
Longchamp – clearly theres a new grandstand being built but again, get out there on Arc day and you wont be disappointed. Great bands playing and top class racing.
Leopardstown – easy to get to from Ireland, good craic and good racing.
Curragh – again, I havent been since the renovations but this is a track well worth visiting. I went on Champion day two years back and got to see wonder horses Minding and Order of St George. Not only that but they perade ex horses in the paddock before racing for you to see. Hurricane Fly was one when I went.If one is fortunate to be one of the 6,000 odd who will get a ticket to the big days at the Curragh this year, give it a miss , unless the weather is great. It is a joke right now.
Would like to see Longchamp remove as much as possible the obstacles from viewing the far side of the track. (tents, big screens etc – obviously not the trees)
Nothing against the horse it is just that jockeys should know by now how to ride against him yet they still seem to leave him alone in front in his races, says more about the jockeys than the horse really – you are right about the Dubai run, ironic that you go there because there is pretty much zero chance of the ground being anything else but fast and then they have a torrential rainstorm befoehand turning the ground good to soft.
I don’t know if international horses still get invites but to me the Japan Cup could be an ideal race to target him at as more often than not it is run on very firm ground and travelling is no issue to him and it must be one of the few G1s O’Brien has not won plus the prize money is massive (I think there are also bonuses if you have won certain races in the lead up as well).
Japan bend over backwards with their fantastic bonus payments for the winners of Arcs, King Georges etc who place or win the Japan Cup, in addition to the already excellent money for winning or placing in the Japan Cup. Oddly, it has not really enticed the Europeans over the years. Bit of an ask with it being in December and said horses would have been racing his May-June (or earlier) and running in September -October in the likes of ICS, BCS, Arc and Breeders . Big difference between Hong Kong Vase and Breeders Cup is that the home horses are no where near the high standard of the Japanese middle distance horses.
Errupt of France, won the Woodbine International last year, went to the Japan Cup after that. In 2014, Trading Leather , the 2013 Irish Derby winner broke his leg in Japan. Flintshire was suppose to go there in 2015, but oddly tried to keep it safe with another try of the Hong Kong Vase . Trip To Paris and Errupt went though
Agree about HR. Coronation, King George and maybe York and go straight to the Arc. Then, definitely give Japan a try. They would probably want to go back to the Breeders Cup, but with it being in Del Mar? To hell with that
Poor old Camelot…he wasn’t half bad as a racehorse but he always seems to get the thin end of things.
Firstly he had to follow Frankel…thankless and impossible
Then he gets denied a Triple Crown by a runner who, on the balance of probabilities, was doped.
Finally this threadWhilst far from a greatest I will always have a soft spot for him and winning the Guineas with a son of Montjeu just might be Aidan’s greatest feat.
“He had to follow Frankel, thankless and impossible”
What? He DODGED him (Frankel) If Coolmore had any confidence in him , they would have ran their Guineas – Derby winner for the middle distance races like King George and meet Frankel at the Juddmonte when there was still doubt as to whether Frankel would stay ( and where the money had increased that year) or at least prepare for the Arc (which not only did he run in, but his main jockey ditched him, despite having a 3 year old weight allowance)
As for stud, there is absolutely nothing so far to suggest that Camelot would not be a great sire in his own right or worse than Frankel. Considering that Coolmore have a superior record of managing their stallions (beyond touching) and buying any mare that they want and getting syndicates in on the bandwagon, I would not doubt them. They are desperate to find a suitable replacement for Galileo. Although Camelot was a Montjeu (and was a fine stallion himself) that would be all the more sweeter for them.
And of course, not to mention who will be training many of them, Aidan O’Brien has more talent in his baby finger than most of the other European Trainers put together.
“Impossible”? Hardly! Maybe both would be rubbish or average Stallions, but the title of this thread is laughable and frankly, deluded. But we shall see in a few years time. To be honest, I would not mind seeing Coolmore loose their domination for a while…….
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if a Nathaniel or Excelebration nails a Classic or a Group 1 in Europe (where it really matters) before Frankel? Even more so if it was in Juddmonte colours
Bar the Japanese horse’s Group 1 win last year, Frankel would have been way way way way way down in the money list for 2 year olds (Japan has huge money, and in fairness, most trainers avoided running their Frankels) No one cares about maidens! Stakes performances are what matters.
I watched a documentary recently about Coolmore and one of their most interesting stallions is Camelot. Apparently he walks around the studfarm like he owns it and if he transfers that ability and confidence to his offspring who knows what they’ll achieve.
I have seen him in the flesh, he likes to put on a show, kicking and bucking
) Lynam and the Power family doing the double in 2014 was great too.
(how can anyone say that ? but in the sport of kings it is peanuts) even in those days, compared the price that other horses were sold for at those sales . It is not like “the lads” are hidding at the sales. It is not hard to spot their snazzy Coolmore jackets and baseball caps with the latest great race horse adorning on the said hat.So when you see them getting busy at the auction, ya know that they fancy it (of course, they have spent a million on many a horse that did little ) 
Many of Coolmore’s best stock was BOUGHT AT PUBLIC SALES. Open for everyone else to bid! So, no, they were were NOT exclusive .Granted some of their very best were fully home bred but if they were solely reliant on home breds they would not be as dominant .
It is one thing to call on opinion, and another to have an ill informed one
Don’t see Juddmonte doing that . 
. Look at the lengths that they go to in maintaining not just Ballydoyle Stables but their Breeding stable up the road from that, not to mention their National Hunt Stables . They cut and harvest their own feed and are pretty self contained.