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Will be interesting but for the life of me I cannot understand why he covered Annie Power unless they are looking to him to be a NH stallion – he did stay 14F and was a two time Derby winner and in my mind he could eventually end up being like another two time Derby winner in Old Vic who wasn’t fashionable enough for the flat boys but ended up a top NH stallion.
Maybe so , but Camelot also won the Guineas. Remains to be seen what will happen with his 2 year olds at distances under a mile.
As for Annie Power, why not? Quick exposure to the NH market, with probably one of the best mares in NH in a long time. Considering the need and desire to continue with Staying /Cup races and the realisation that they are important, there is a market for good stayers on the flat. St Leger -Ascot Gold Cup horses. Some of them can then try out Melbourne Cup and even the Japan Cup or Hong Kong later. It has not killed Big Orange on his travels, he was a nose from winning the Dubai Gold Cup which was a bout £400,000 worth to the winner. We saw Red Cadeaux win more prize money for just placing (and the odd Group 1 win) abroad
A lot of the Ascot Gold Cup winners now tend to be middle distance horses going up in trip due to them being slightly below G1 level at 12F/14F as opposed to those horses being bred to stay a trip (who tend to go straight to the NH field) – even Rite of Passage the 2010 winner (who started over bumpers and took in hurdling) was by Giant’s Causeway.
One could argue that Coolmore themselves cemented that trend when Yeats (one time Derby favourite and a Coronation Cup winner) moved up into and ruled the staying division.
One would have to wonder whether the offspring of Camelot/Annie Power would be quick enough for the staying races on the flat against speedier bred middle distance types but then again stranger things have happened in the breeding shed, afterall Red Rum was bred to be a miler!
These middle distance horses that went up in trip are still able to bet the so called tried and tested stayers.(your point) Still, I think it was great. At least we got to see them from 2-4 years extra rather than been sent to Australia or Honkers where they either were buried in awful handicaps or Group 3s but running at huge weights in 7 f races , hoping to get their weight for the Melbourne Cup nice and low ( HR Cecil was right , handicaps are a licence to cheat)
When you say middle distance you are referring to 10-14 f? or 12-14 f ?
Sure some of the leading National Hunt Stallions, were Craven/King George and Irish/Epsom Derby 2nds (King Theatre) , Presenting was only 1 3/4 l third in his Derby and we all know that the winner turned out to be very special.Oscar was a runner up in the French Derby and that winner turned out to be special. Milan was a St Leger winner and came 2nd to Fantastic Light in the Breeders Cup. Old Vic won both the Irish and French Derbies and was a nose from winning a King George.
Westerner, a Cadran/French Leger/Ascot Gold Cup winner, has sired a few Cheltenham winners like Cole Harden. Western was by DANEHILL! He was also , as you know, only 2 lengths behind Hurricane Run in the Arc, giving him weight. He made more one that one could have expected on the track running predominately in stayers flat races after showing that he wasn’t good enough for mile races.
Jeremy was a 7f – miler and produced interesting hurdlers like Our Conor.Then the dearly missed Montjeu, a beast! Sired none other than Hurricane Fly not to mention STS old foe and Ascot Gold Cup winner, Fame & Glory. (Saddler’s Well, some stallion, eh)
Would a Camelot/Annie Power be quick enough?
Trip To Paris was by Champs Elysee who excelled at 10f in Canada and did alright in the US for Bobby Frankel (didn’t do a lot in France for Fabre). He hasn’t really done a lot as a stallion in Europe but he was not getting the support Harleem and Jack Naylor might have been his best lot , but, he has produced some interesting fillies like Suffused who is good enough to clean up in the US in “Marathon” races (14 furlongs) she was unlucky not to win the EP Taylor last year. Not sure why they would want to keep her at 10 furlongs in the US (Beverely Dee, I would put her in against the boys for the 12 furlongs races, as most of them are rubbish) He has now gone to Coolmore as a NH stallion for his troubles. The dam of Trip to Paris was a middle distance runner and by Fantastic Light….. Trip to Paris had enough speed around Chester in the Chester Cup…..
These flashy middle distance horses with speed still have to stay.
Sure Two Time Stayers Triple Crown Winner, Le Moss, was sired by Le Levanstall, a Jersey Stakes and QEII and Sussex Champion Miler! The the Dam Sire was none other than Ballymoss , the Irish Derby . King George, Arc and St Leger winner. His old foe, and himself a Stayers Triple Crown winner, Ardross was fired by an American 10-12 furlong Group 1 winner, where speed is king. We all know that Ardross was the closest Cecil got to winning the Arc (and he was giving weight too. Ardross was of course, a head away from doing something that few unlike his own dam sire did (Levoss) win the Ascot Gold Cup, Cadran and Arc (in the same year)
AS you know, Annie Power was by Shirocco, a Breeders Cup Turf Winner (Sired Brown Panther and Wild Coco who was a staying Filly with Cecil who was less than 2 lengths away from Treve in the Vermeille and would have competed in the Arc but for injury, and had won the “Fillies St Leger” previously) , who in turn was by Monsun who sired classy horses like Novelists (King George and would have given Treve a scare if he ran in the 2013 Arc) and Protectionist who won all around him in Germany and won the Melbourne Cup , as did Fiorente . Monsun also sired Stacelita
I would definitely give a Camelot x Annie Power a fighting chance in flat long distance and even the odd middle distance races with the right owner and trainer
I watched a documentary recently about Coolmore and one of their most interesting stallions is Camelot. Apparently he walks around the studfarm like he owns it and if he transfers that ability and confidence to his offspring who knows what they’ll achieve.
I have seen him in the flesh, he likes to put on a show, kicking and bucking
Poor old Camelot…he wasn’t half bad as a racehorse but he always seems to get the thin end of things.
Firstly he had to follow Frankel…thankless and impossible
Then he gets denied a Triple Crown by a runner who, on the balance of probabilities, was doped.
Finally this threadWhilst far from a greatest I will always have a soft spot for him and winning the Guineas with a son of Montjeu just might be Aidan’s greatest feat.
“He had to follow Frankel, thankless and impossible”
What? He DODGED him (Frankel) If Coolmore had any confidence in him , they would have ran their Guineas – Derby winner for the middle distance races like King George and meet Frankel at the Juddmonte when there was still doubt as to whether Frankel would stay ( and where the money had increased that year) or at least prepare for the Arc (which not only did he run in, but his main jockey ditched him, despite having a 3 year old weight allowance)
As for stud, there is absolutely nothing so far to suggest that Camelot would not be a great sire in his own right or worse than Frankel. Considering that Coolmore have a superior record of managing their stallions (beyond touching) and buying any mare that they want and getting syndicates in on the bandwagon, I would not doubt them. They are desperate to find a suitable replacement for Galileo. Although Camelot was a Montjeu (and was a fine stallion himself) that would be all the more sweeter for them.
And of course, not to mention who will be training many of them, Aidan O’Brien has more talent in his baby finger than most of the other European Trainers put together.
“Impossible”? Hardly! Maybe both would be rubbish or average Stallions, but the title of this thread is laughable and frankly, deluded. But we shall see in a few years time. To be honest, I would not mind seeing Coolmore loose their domination for a while…….
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if a Nathaniel or Excelebration nails a Classic or a Group 1 in Europe (where it really matters) before Frankel? Even more so if it was in Juddmonte colours
Bar the Japanese horse’s Group 1 win last year, Frankel would have been way way way way way down in the money list for 2 year olds (Japan has huge money, and in fairness, most trainers avoided running their Frankels) No one cares about maidens! Stakes performances are what matters.
Poor old Camelot…he wasn’t half bad as a racehorse but he always seems to get the thin end of things.
Firstly he had to follow Frankel…thankless and impossible
Then he gets denied a Triple Crown by a runner who, on the balance of probabilities, was doped.
Finally this threadWhilst far from a greatest I will always have a soft spot for him and winning the Guineas with a son of Montjeu just might be Aidan’s greatest feat.
I’ve always admired Camelot, he just has that aura around him that so many great racehorses have, he was like the Sprinter Sacre of the flat in that regard. He would have been remembered as one of the all time greats if it wasn’t for the doped up Encke, I’ll never forgive Al Zarooni for robbing us of that.
To be fair Twice Over I think the title is meant to a bit tongue-in-cheek, just a word play on the popular Frankel thread.
Ardross was of course, a head away from doing something that few unlike his own dam sire did (Levoss) win the Ascot Gold Cup, Cadran and Arc (in the same year)
Em, no he wasn’t. Ardross never even ran in the Cadran.
Nothing to do with Camelot but as LostSoldier3 said he had had a bet on Society Rock to be top sire 2017 just wanted to say how much I’m looking forward to seeing the progeny of TORONADO running next season and will definitely be having a bet on himself to be top sire of 2018.
Saw him at the National Stud Newmarket a couple of months ago and he looks magnificent and he, like Camelot is ruling the roost there, stamping his mark on his foals, some of whom we saw with their mothers in the paddocks. Frankel, Camelot and Toronado a formidable trio of Sires, can’t wait to see their progeny take each other on.
JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Ardross was of course, a head away from doing something that few unlike his own dam sire did (Levoss) win the Ascot Gold Cup, Cadran and Arc (in the same year)
Em, no he wasn’t. Ardross never even ran in the Cadran.
That was badly written, that could have just said Ascot Gold Cup and Arc, Adross campaigned for the Cups in the UK. Levoss won the said three races
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if a Nathaniel or Excelebration nails a Classic or a Group 1 in Europe (where it really matters) before Frankel? Even more so if it was in Juddmonte colours
I would be delighted if Nathaniel wins a European classic before Frankel – I’ve backed both his sons tomorrow! Not sure it would be “hilarious” but whatever rocks your boat I suppose……
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
LATROBE wins the Irish Derby and Vitamin on her comeback trail wins at Newmarket today.
Last week Arthur Kitt won The Chesham Stakes at Royal Ascot.He’s on his way.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Goddess, sister to Athena bolts in by 12 lengths tonight. Could be another star in the making that one
Camelot is looking quite the bargain at €30k now, although I imagine that fee will be jacked quite significantly next year.
Jac
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