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As ghastly and tasteless that I find many of these ads (funny enough, some of the Paddy Power ones are good – funny how they try to act like they are your best friend, and then refuse to take some people’s bets) are we living in a bit of a snowflake society? Do ads really force you to bet? (yeah I know, that might be a stupid statement as it clearly works for bookies) That pretty young thing in the Coral ads (with the fat chap) is she going to encourage people to bet with Coral.?
No what how we all have issues with the ads, racing is linked to betting, no matter how many of the purists want to deny this.
You go to any race track, you bring the children in for free (and rightly so) , there are loads of bookies near the track. Does that make the kids who are clued in want to have a bet?
ods and getting the best out of them can’t be easy. Reading the Tony McCoy autobiography, you get the impression that O’Brien got a good education from the perfectionist Jim Bolger. Aiden though you feel, could have been successful in any activity he put his mind to.
He gives off the vibe of being very single-minded and very driven. He’s obsessed with racing, I doubt he thinks about much else, apart from his family, and he
Bolger was said to have been prepapred to do anything short of marrying O’Brien , in order to keep him in his team.Bolger is not the type to run his mouth off with high praise
A lot of good guys went through Bolger, whether jockeys or trainers. Wachman and Eddie Lynam also spent time with him. Jockies like Paul Carberry and Seamie Hefferenan too. I understand that Willie Mullins spent a short period with Bolger too, though not sure what he learned from the experience.
Twice over We do have a lot of years knowledge about horse racing on this form if you read my comment again it was about the 1-2-3-4-5 in the Chelt Gold Cup cheers
I am referring to the “fluke” reference
pose that makes a lot of sense. O’Leary believing less than a week beforehand that he has a massive chance of eventually winning his own race only f
Sandra did reasonably well actually . Irish Grand National on first time of asking with Thunder and Roses. I am not sure many could get Sub Lieutenant running as well as she did. Fruastrating enough horse. Lt Colonel was Dessie’s last Group 1 win days before he died. He won another Group 1 for Sandra at Leoppy during the Christmas beating a decent horse in Jetson. Things went a bit pershaped performance wise against the real big boys in the Spring and missed a bit of 2015/2016.
In Ireland, Hughes was 15 wins for 147 runs in 2014/2015 (only took over in November 2014, officially). For Gigginstown, she won 8 out of roughly 40 runs for Gigginstown horses. 3 runs in UK , no wins
In 2015/2016, her first full season (including the off season preparations) she won 13 out of 143 races in Ireland. Only 2 out of 35 were for Gigginstown and most of them were horses from the year before.
With Regard to Mouse, his record in record was not entirely a whole lot different from 2011-2012 onwards, and he had the decent First Lieutenant .
http://www.racingpost.com/horses/trainer_home.sd?trainer_id=3891#bottomTrainerTabs=trainer_horses
I would say Its a bit harder to get a 1-2-3 in an Arc than it would to get 1-2-3-4-5 in the Gold Cup but that’s me!
No offence to the man but you could say that was a fluke.. you could say that to a …Breeders cup / Ascot Gold Cup /King George7 group one races between them before today Ummmmmmmmm
We all know this will go down as the greatest achievement of a trainer of all time no matter how hard you Jumpers don’t like it get used to it!
I do not really think anyone would utter that word fluke, to be fair to them
Plenty of websites including this, was convinced that OSG should run at the Arc and that he could place; everyone knew that Found was kept in training for this and that 12f is her gig and that he was also worth a punt, and then Highland Reel has done little wrong at 12 f this season bar a jockey error at Royal Ascot.
Scary how well all three ran and with ease, that track did not look easy
Amazing achievment by a genius, surely the greatest trainer ever. On a line thru Order of St George, wicklow Brave would have been 2nd, + Faugheen would have won by 10 lengths
I assume that you are aware that geldings are banned from the Arc, 12 furlongs is different to 14 furlongs, and Ryan Moore did not cover himself in glory with the way he rode an out and out stayer in the Irish St Leger.
Saying that, Dettori gave OSG a peach of a ride from the wide stall. Seamie Hefferenan also once again proved his worth to Ballydoyle with a very good ride on Highland Reel.
As for Faugheen , big difference between racing against National Hunt type horses and proper 12 f specialists of the flat
Not belittling the Irish champion just stating that they could well have won more group races than they have if they didn’t race so many in the samevraces. 3 in the moyglare,3 in the Beresford etc. Aiden does seem more at ease these days,by aidenss standards,and he just seem to have plans ready more than last year. The amount of good fillies they have is amazing so no surprise to see them clash. Interesting to see who goes to Chantilly,champions day and the breeders cup. Its great they have do many older horses like highland reel it really adds to the big races.
Moyglare is an important Group 1 for 2 year olds, in Ireland. Their first choice horse did not win, so it would have been too late to curse themselves and wish they threw in another one of their horses.Of course, neither of Aidan’s won
Well, not completely true, the wife use to own her. Sure Brave Anna went on to win the Cheveley at 6 furlongs (never won at 7f) What harm did it do to here?As you know, he did the same last year (and the year before -Found) , Ballydoyle had bet Minding in the race before, Minding wins this, and Alice Springs has done well this year. If he had other horses that already won a group race eg Ascot or placed, then they deserve to be in something like the Moyglare, even if it means that they meet each other. As you know, there are three or four different owner’s colours. I assume both Magnier, Tabor and Smith all would like their nominated horse to be running?
I do not disagree with you, I pointed that out with regard to selections at Ascot in the last two years .What other races, at that time of the year was there (September)? Why would he run a few at Donny (he does) when he has to be in Ireland to run the show at Irish Champions Day? Some of this horses ran in the French Group 1 and later of course the British Group 1 race on Future Champions Day. There are only so many Group races in Ireland .
Henry Cecil was not a keen lover of International racing , compared to say, Gosden or Stoute. Granted he did not have many bullets and heavily relied upon his stars in Midday, Twice Over and Frankel for his fantastic success in the UK. He saw that there was enough in the British programme . He could have prepared Frankel for the Irish Champions Stakes , Arc or something in the Breeders Cup (Juddmonte LOVE the BC and have yet to win the 12f race, Classic or the mile (not sure about that race) No, he wanted to support the then new British Champions Day Series that clearly was created with Frankel in mind -or just fantastic timing. One thing that the naysayers might have with Frankel, his success alone upped the British prize money. Compare the money for the QEII in 2010 to that of 2011 and onwards. Peanuts in comparison. Likewise the British Champions Stakes – Enough to give a trainer a serious chance of the Trainers Title if he has horses that run well in both.
He was prepared to sacrifice a chance of another Breeders Cup success in 2011 with Midday (though she went for the Turf racing that trying to retain the Filly and Mares race) in order to run in the BC despite Twice Over who looked to be fading, beating her and her not winning a race with the boys (though he was gunning for a chance of winning the Trainers Title, one can’t blame him)
Richard Hannon Senior and Junior have a history of bringing over 2 year olds for listed and group races for 2 year olds. You reckon Hannon would be put off by Coolmore if he had the hindsight to declare a horse now in form? No. It is the declaration rules that is causing some of the issues. HRI response, even if a tiny bit true ie running scared of O’Brien, was unnecessary. However, when you have guys like the Hannons who do bring their horses over, there is some credibility to the complaint, more so than say………… Stoute , if he was minded to comment (He rarely brings horses over unless it is a good group 2 or a Group 1
Mickey’s point about some trainer not having enough bullets is spot on. Naturally, they was to keep them for some of the big group races in England. O’Brien has so many horses he has to give each horse a chance , whether it is Ireland or England. Sadly, for him , he has little choice but to run them against each other
Problem is, sometimes you fancy one of his horses more than O’Brien himself does and it turns out half way through the race your horse was sacrificed as the pace maker. (Hey not his fault) I recall my mate tipping me Sword Fighter for the Vase. 33/1 looked too big to ignore. Good enough to place, ignore the last run I was told. Half way through I am swearing to my self, a good horse who can do this distance being used as a bloody pace maker for an exposed horse (House of Parliament, considering the Group 3 win and place in Leger, turns out he is alright) What would I know, Sword Fighter wins and my mate looks like a genius
HRI need to care about what other trainers think. No one is going to bother going to the races if it continues to be an Aidan O’Brien Benefit day. Even the bookies are not going to do much bar the lunatic who will lob on a couple of hundred for an odds on favourite (though, helped at Champions Weekend)
Funny enough, for the fantastic card that was up on for both days of Irish Champions Weekend, the attendance from last year was……………DOWN!Leopardstown did not seem to be down, but the Chairman of the course said they were; but the Curragh was- horrible place when it is half full (track is lovely of course) . And the only distraction sport wise was French trials and look at the lack of horses turning up for that
Again not O’Brien’s fault. Bolger is having a very poor season and Weld, for all his winners is mainly relying on 3-4 decent horses to win decent races . Whatever happened to Bobby’s Kitten, the Breeder Cup Sprint winner? He was sent to Weld to run at Ascot. He appeared in Cork on awful ground for a listed race and won nicely.
rm from this year being very consistent it should be no surprise to anyone if she comes out on top at Chantilly.
Look at the races she was in however. Moore did not cover himself in glory on her last year in the British Champion Stakes against the boys and she was just back from last years Arc where Moore was not that great on her.
Irish Guineas, yeah should have won but I do not recall her wining the earlier group 3 race (on ground she did not like)
Can’t fault her at York this year with big weights, fortunate second in the Irish Champions Stakes last year. Ran well this year.
Is it the same problem that Richard Hannon highlighted just a couple of weeks ago: very early closing dates for entry and high fees to supplement at the later stages? Knowing which will be your best late season two-years-olds in March or April is a bit of a guess, or betting your supplementary fee against the prize money available at unfavourable odds compared to the market, are not owner friendly. Or have HRI rubbished that notion?
Yes, more or less, they were pretty sarky with Hannon, if I recall .Hannon was correct
This is HRI response
Aidan O’Brien and the lads I mean.
Group Two Beresford today worth 70k euros to the winner yet O’Brien is allowed to win it (his finish 1-2-3 in fact) virtually unchallenged. Why the leading English yards don’t travel to Ireland more often to participate in these relatively richly endowed group races and serve it up to O’Brien is beyond me.
Firstly, what makes you think that the leading British yards would win anyway? Seems Aidan is beating the British on their own turf this year in equivalent races .
Be great if the British and French did come over to Ireland. It is getting dreary, I barely even bother to take time out to watch Irish racing live now, (watch it later)
Richard Hughes recently explained that some of it is to due with the Irish requiring declaration months ahead at a steep enough cost and supplementing makes it not worth it.
A lot of it is to do with supporting Irish racing. They could have easily run minding and highland reel in France and picked up two group ones but coolmore seemed to feel obliged to support races like the Irish champion which turned out to be the best field this season. Also they have a lot more older horses than usual due to some of last season’s 3yo having had niggly injuries. We are likely to see the likes of Idaho,minding and seventh heaven for next season so aiden will have a strong hand in middle distance races. Also coolmore have an unbelievable amount of top fillies mainly Galileo’s so they will inevitably clash. Could be aiden is having a bigger input than before as he seems to be saying a lot less of the lads deciding and seems to have long term plans for most horses. I often wonder if aiden would win more big races if he had control of plans for the horses.
The way you talk about the Irish Champions Stakes, whether intentionally or not, is that it is of some inconvenience or just a mickey mouse group 1. Obliged to run? You see the prize money it now gets? Ranked pretty high up, top 7 in the Longines top 100 races. It is THE perfect prep ride for the Arc. O’Brien has not won it since 2010, and boy they have tried since. Pretty good turn out for that race in both 2013 (despite the ground) 2014 and 2015.
Out of the current bunch this year, both Highland Reel, even if he really is a 12 f horse, Found and Minding had legitimate chances and had merit to be in the IC this year.You could not be entirely sure as to who out of those three (well, between Found and Minding) who would win. Look who won the Epsom Oaks in 2015 (okay, not a Coolmore Horse) but it was Aidan’s.
As for the other Irish races , which I assume you were really talking about, well they are Irish, can’t always be flying over to Britain or France. Money is good for the Irish Classics, which, O’Brien only won 1 this year!
I will be surprised if Minding does train on, but great if she doesNot really sure what other big races they could possibly win even if the lads are not as vocal in the decision making. They have done pretty damn good on the global front for years, their decision making can hardly be faulted.
Wonder did the debacle of Gleneagles and O’Brien’s desire not to run him at QEII (it was so not his decision) put an input to that? Or was it his treats of taking a back seat last year at the Ascot festival (or was that at York?)
In the last two years , they have been more picky as to what races they run their horses. Previously they would throw in no hopers into Group 1 races , horses that could have a better chance at the group 2 and 3 races at Ascot. No mob handing even those races. One race, one horse.
Can anyone shed any light on my perception that O’Brien and the boys are running their horses more often than they used to ?
I have no statistics to back up this line of thought but it appears to me that this may be the case, and appears to be more pronounced with regard to the training of fillies in particular.
Happy to have my perceptions either confirmed or disproved.Try racing post website, gives break down, over the decades as to all the horses etc.
Stats say he has ran way more in Britain this year, and it is not even October. He has the title in the bag since York Week
Even in Ireland, he seems to be running the 2 year olds a little more
Highland Reel himself has been somewhat , flogged.
Seriously tough, without them in Ireland, there turn out would be poorer for the prestige of the group races. Bolger has gone quite and Weld is doing his thing but not really with the younger horses except Harzand.
Interesting debate on whether allowances are needed to allow female jockeys to compete on a level playing field with men. Kevin Blake making a case for an allowance.
My own view reflects Blake’s in that racing is a sport where physical attributes play an important role (strength, stamina) and men are simply physiologically equipped to have a ‘natural’ advantage. So, to compete equally you would need some form of allowance.
However, imagine a top female jockey claiming 3 or 5lbs in the Derby and beating a male ridden horse by a head. Oh the uproar.The discussion came up last year when AP McCoy, after the Melbourne Cup, got his ear burnt from the women in the sport about this topic. It came from well known Female jockeys who have have moderate success themselves,and could possibly do with an allowance. Of course the real issue is getting a chance with good horses, but that is the same I am sure for Adam Kirby, Luke Morris, and George Baker
Maybe a bigger uproar would be that they get retained by a big owner? Won’t be a certain Arab owner or two , that is for sure, lol.
If young male apprentices ever got a chance to ride in the Derby or another big race, even as a pace maker for the star horse (something Jim Bolger might do) surely they don’t get to use their allowances so why should a woman?
In fairness, some girls have shown that they can do it against their own competition in the apprentice championships. Sammy Jo Bell was going great until injury, Josephine Gordon is being used by anyone who needs a good apprentice and has ridden some very good winners she will surely do well once the claim is gone. Hayely Turner (who got all the notice, unreasonably, just for being a girl and camera friendly) did win a group 1 in the UK and abroad as a full time jockey and has been known to win about 100 races in a season. Lizzie Kelly in the Jumps is doing her own thing. Then there is Cathy Gannon who always seems to be injured, but is a fine jockey. Kevin Ryan’s daughter did well as an apprentice, sadly injury messed up her career, like her partner.
In Ireland the big talk are two Irish Grand National winners, Nina Carberry and Ruby’s sister, but both of them are “amateur” (I don’t like using that word, they are far from amateur”
In the US, there have been a few successful women jockeys, but some are more famous for their modeling shoots than anything else . However, Rosie Napravnik did the hard work and had a pretty solid career, winning the Kentucky Oaks and two Breeders Cup and being relatively high the the top jockey table for money won,(Top ten from 2012-2014!) until she gave up to make babies. She would be still doing it if they stayed
Whatever women do, if or when they get a chance on Group 1 races, don’t go running your mouth off like Michelle Payne, who before winning Melbourne, was not exactly burning up the scene in the regional racing in Australia , never mind the big metropolitan races.That applies to the men as well. Keep your mouth shut and ears and eyes open. It is a nonsense to say she is finished because of a horrific fall. Many top jockeys have had injuries, injuries have plauged Ryan Moore over the years hence he is not pushed about jockey titles if he means his chances to ride internationally are compromised. When fit they never have issues getting mounts. Missy Payne here, now knows that one big win does not make thee a great jockey and she knows now that money people do not like getting called out, especially when you ain’t producing the goods even on the regional circuit. Funny , she wants to be a trainer now, a such a young age. Expects the same money people that she called out to support her?
Sure, look at it this way, and people will disagree with me here, but that is what discussions are for, I may well be educated; Take Ryan Moore (people may not be happy with him at the moment) , Frankie Dettori (Melbourne Cup last year being a big blot on an otherwise excellent season) and ? Who of the men , from Britain and Ireland , are top top players (excuse the soccer talk) , world class? Who are the big young guns ? (okay too early to say) Buick and Doyle are not kids (too early yet, their time will come)
Look at Ireland, despite the fact that Aidan O’Brien, in Ireland, is not only walking away with the trainers title by money, but he is also doing so by the number of wins and easily considering (about 20 more wins) Weld and his love for festivals outside of the Curragh & Leopardstown), Normally Weld (who is having a fine Group 1 and 2 season) and Bolger often can have more winners. No one is within an assess roar of Pat Smullen for the jockies title. He could decide to pop over to the UK for the rest of the month or get banned and he will still win the title comfortably. The gap between him and young Colin Keane (credit to him) is about 30 wins.I know Coolmore lads share jockey duty but one of them should be cleaning up the Irish scene and being closer to Smullen (Moore has only won 21 out of 73 rides – good rate). We continue to wait for Chris Hayes to finally do his thing, even to reach the top 3 jockey, Lordan?
Credit to De Sousa and Crowley the British title is interesting this year, but are either of them top class? How many top Group 1 and two races did they even ride in this year? They were slogging it off elsewhere while Royal Ascot and surprisingly Goodwood and York passsed by despite there good handicap races on the card. De Sousa failed at Godolphin (not hard to be fair) and they way he left was humiliating (credit to him for bouncing back) To be fair, De Sousa should go back to Hong Kong in the winter, he did really well over there. In a way Crowley had a similar issue, lost his gig with up and coming Beckett (missed out on an Oaks win for choosing the wrong horse – it happens, and then brilliant won the British mares race at Champions Weekend against Becketts filly in 2014)
France have a similar issue, one or two faces and Christy the Belgian (lol) Cheminaud is coming on fine. Peslier still has it, (well Dartmouth fans might have issues)
Surely, if the girls are good enough, they will get their chance , it is not like the younger male jockeys are ripping it up? Oisin Murphy and Andrei Atzeni are grand and they will get better…..interesting to see how Marquand does without the claim (Hannon will snap him up surely and Levey is not doing it)
If the women, even the senior riders get an allowance, would that be an issue keeping the weight down? I understand that many young jockeys are delighted to get their claim down a few pounds to make weight easier, surely that would be the same for the girls?
Credit to the woman, though (sorry if that sounds patronizing, it was not meant to be) they are not demanding this allowance and want to be treated truly equal
Sounds like Time Test indeed leaving Charlton for the States.
I hope people don’t take this as a criticism towards Charlton. This is not unusal, sure many of Fabre’s horses were sent State side. It is a good call. Flintshire is hardly going to hang about next year and Juddmonte tend to like having a good horse or two in the US
Gingertipster wrote:-
Probably because the owner and owner’s racing manager know more about both horses (and trainer) than you do Jac.Reply Triptych:-
So unless you have been in a meeting with Teddy Grimthorpe and Prince Khalid regarding the future of Time Test how much more do you know Ginger that would confirm your superior knowledge of horses in Mr. Charlton’s yard to make the following statement.
Gingertipster wrote:-
Wouldn’t be a surprise if that might be his last race for Charlton on his way to Brown.Reply Triptych:-
Just an opinion and we’re all entitled to those aren’t we Ginge?
Sorry the quotes have gone beserk on here
I think the Thread is overloading and about to detonate
If you reviewed the history of Juddmonte horses, in Europe, over the last two decades, you would see a bit of a pattern.
Often, from 4-5 years of age, there will be a number of horses in the European stable that were bridesmaids in Group 1 races, or horses that won a Group 1 or two but really should have done more, or just very good horses but the competition is deep in their division. Where the horses likes good ground and fails to get it in Europe, Juddmonte have often sent their horses to the US; First to Bobby Frankel, then William Mott and more recently Chad Brown, a former Assistant of Frankel
Many of the best trainers in the ranks have had horses taken from their yards. It was nothing personal just they wanted to get a better stud record for their horses. Loads of Fabre’s went Stateside such as Champs Elysee, Zambezi Sun, Treaty Gently and recently Flintshire and of course Proviso. Many of them dominated their divisions in the US, the later on dirt of all grounds. Henry Cecil saw Beat Hollow go State side. Perrett had Ventura who did little in Britain and then became a multiple group 1 winner on turf and dirt for Frankel
You study who heads over to the US regularly, you kinda can make an educated guess what can happen to many of the horses. Abdullah tends to have a long history of loyalty to his trainers, Charlton being one of his first in the UK. He is too classy to be swamping trainers in Europe. There are a number of reasons by Prince Khalid does not get the same reaction people seem to get compared to other Arab horse owners.
Anyho, Charlton spoke with Champman before the Doncaster Cup, it seems that he is being prepared for the Breeders Cup
Regarding Time Test – they were crazy not to go for the POW. Couldn’t understand it all.
Winning performance by My Dream Boat possibly the worst for many years, Peruvian Chief. Time Test would not have needed to be at his best to win it, however with the ground in the POW Soft was too soft for Time Test to produce his best. So doubt he’d have been successful.
And yet Charlton said looking back he’d probably have won.
He didn’t run Time Test in Ireland or Ascot due to the going (we all know Time Test needs it quick) yet ran him in the Eclipse on soft. Whatever way you want to dress it up Ginge, Charlton made a mess of things.Would Time Test have won the POW despite the ground?
Although I disagree with him it is possible. On soft ground in the Eclipse Time Test finished only 2 1/4 lengths behind the winner Hawkbill, despite being held up in a comparitively slowly run affair. Performance of being 2 1/4 lengths third isn’t that far behind My Deam Boat’s performance in winning the POW.However, what I believe Charlton is talking about is a very literal reading of the form. ie Time Test finished 3 lengths in front of My Dream Boat in the Eclipse, therefore Charlton believes Time Test would’ve finished ahead of MDB in the POW. You and I might realise MDB put up a much better performance in the POW than Eclipse, but trainers are not form experts.
As for the trainer messing up in the running of Time Test: In most people’s opinion “Time Test needs it quick” to produce his best form… So missing a race run on soft going is expected, missing (one) the Tatts Gold Cup is fine, there are other races to win. Missing another race in the POW is fine (two), there are other races to win… However, if a horse looks like missing three races connections are imo justified in wanting to run even if conditions are not in his favour. Horses are in training to race and there’s no point in keeping a horse in training without running. In danger of spending much of the year in his box. Also, there are often alternative races to aim for when missing races; had Time Test not run in the Eclipse what alternative was there? It may have been thought they’d not lose much in running him as it fits in well with other targets. Must have come out of the race well to win the Skybet just 3 weeks later. Tbh – I was a bit disappointed he didn’t go clear and win easier. But runner-up Mondiliste’s subsequent victory in the Arlington Million has put a much better gloss on the Skybet. Time Test ran a lot better than I thought at the time, somewhere near his best.
Am certain at the beginning of the season Time Test’s primary target was the owner’s race, Juddmonte International. Everything before was all leading to the August feature. But sadly it went wrong for him. Connections are naturally going to wonder if they should’ve done things differently; but that’s with hindsight. Had Time Test been A1, run and won the International would we now be talking about an excellent, patient trainer?
Well they have a number of options
1. Send him to some of the big races in late Autumn, eg Hong Kong, Breeders (not sure he would qualify and it would either be a mile or the 12f race), even maybe Australia (too late for that as he would need to be leaving now, and apparently he lost his conditioning)
2. Come back next year with the same trainer.
3. Send him to Chad Brown in the USA
Well, not completely true, the wife use to own her. Sure Brave Anna went on to win the Cheveley at 6 furlongs (never won at 7f) What harm did it do to here?
