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Words of warning regarding Kingsfort….
1) Why has he not reappeared since his debut – passing up numerous opportunities which is not the stable norm.
2) From a yard that would have had him well prepped for his debut – often a yard that produces impressive maiden winners that do not progress as expected.
Coolmore (more specifically Mr O’Brien) has been quoted as saying Kingdom of Naples had his problems when at the yard. He was sold to de Kock, as reported in the Racing Post on November 4th last year.
Thank you Friggo.
Guessing guessing guessing….
All in the one thread you claim "sexy" breeding is not all its cracked up to be, only then a few posts later you rule horses out because they don’t have enough "class" in the pedigree (in your opinion I hasten to add).
This years three year old colts are clearly very, very good. How that is disputable I’m struggling to figure out to be honest.
It is not you Ian that is struggling….the usual suspects on here are that have forced others away from the forum given the level of debate at times.
And for the record O’Brien reports the Rip Van Winkle has come out of the Sussex Stakes pretty sore and misses his next engagement in France and heads straight for Ascot all being well.
Yes….Coolmore are thrilled to promote the fact their prospective stallion has seemingly chronic foot problems!!!
The horse missed engagements last season (just three runs which is not common for a O’Brien 2 year old) and has had problems in the run up to the 2000 Guineas and Eclipse.
I would love to read the exact quote where anyone blamed his foot problems for his defeat at Newmarket or Sandown.
I don’t know why people are are rating Rip’s ability at a maile on his guineas run. He had a setback beforehand, and was quite obviously rusty that day, he ran a very similar race to Mastercraftsman. And look what MC has done since at a mile, and he had no stone bruise.
Yep, just look what MC has done since; won on bottomless ground at the Curragh, and a hard-fought last-gasp win around Ascot’s stiff Old MIle, mainly courtesy of his 2 pacemakers setting such a searing test.
You’d really have to wonder why MC’s next engagement is in the 10.5f International, and not in tomorrow’s race, wouldn’t you?
You are missing the point though, MCM probably does need further than a mile but his St James Palace form saw him turn around his Guineas form by around 4 lengths. Sure they are going the 10 furlong route now, but clearly he was capable of much better over a mile than he showed at Newmarket.
I think Rip Van Winkle is a pure miler and did not see out the trip in the Eclipse. My worry tomorrow is the track will test his resolution and balance to the hilt and taking that into account Paco Boy looks the safest option though RVW is without doubt (for me) the most talented horse in the race.
Superstar might well be an exageration….but Holy Roman Emperor along with Teofilo were absolutely top class two year olds while Oratario won an Eclipse and an Irish Champion Stakes – either way the point was they ended up being the best from the Coventry runs despite been well beaten on the day.
Why has Steinbeck missed his other intended races the Railway Stakes and Phoenix Stakes? Is it not at all more likely that the reason for misses these races (and reportidly going to now miss the Irish National Stakes Group 1) is because there is something wrong with him? Or perhaps no….you are right they missed the Coventry because they were afraid of CM (who at that stage was a impressive maiden winner) and have intentionally missed major races since just to convince everyone there was something wrong.
Some the stuff on here just goes to show how most of the debate on this place has fallen so low that things are let go slide.
Using Air Chief Marshal as a direct form guide – imagine someone finding a big runner, fast ground Coventry Stakes compariable with a heavy ground Group 1 in a small enough field – being happy to use that as a solid guide to the relative merits of the opposition. Regarding Air Chief Marshal – the likes of Holy Roman Emperor, Oratorio, Rock Of Gibraltar were all well beaten in the Coventry for O’Brien yet turned into superstars.
It really has fallen low if you class the likes of Holy Roman Emperor and Oratorio as superstars.
I stand by what I said regarding Steinbeck missing the Coventry. The Ballydoyle team obviously hold that colt in high regard, and certainly weren’t about to shake its confidence by having him beaten out of sight by Richard Hannon’s " superstar "
They still have around 70 unraced juveniles to appear.
Some the stuff on here just goes to show how most of the debate on this place has fallen so low that things are let go slide.
Reference to Steinbeck missing the Coventry because they were afraid of the Hannon horse (when has a Ballydoyle colt dodged a challenge – surely highlighted this year by them willinging to take on Sea The Stars more than once) – failing to comment on the fact he missed the Railway Stakes and the Phoenix Stakes.
Reference to a Nijinsky type colt not being good enough – not even going to comment on that.
Using Air Chief Marshal as a direct form guide – imagine someone finding a big runner, fast ground Coventry Stakes compariable with a heavy ground Group 1 in a small enough field – being happy to use that as a solid guide to the relative merits of the opposition. Regarding Air Chief Marshal – the likes of Holy Roman Emperor, Oratorio, Rock Of Gibraltar were all well beaten in the Coventry for O’Brien yet turned into superstars.
CM will probably win the Morny and indeed the Middle Park Stakes (his two targets) but will be found out next year (like Three Valleys) when he takes on the proper National Stakes, Dewhurst etc winners in the Guineas. Why is he going for the Middle Park – probably the worst guide in recent years for the Guineas.
It should be emphasised that it was not a performance enhancing drug. I would think (unless there is something more sinister to it) that they probably treated him with something at the time after Cheltenham when it was assumed he was not going to Punchestown and it was still in his system when they turned up to the track after their change of heart.
No excuse though and the race should be stripped from him.
As for "Paul Nicholas wouldn’t do it"….I am sure plenty said the same about Nicky Henderson before the recent news. Whats more plenty of trainers (including Willie Mullins) have had horses lose their races due to traces of banned sustances found in their system.
Trainer deserves plenty of criticism but I would imagine it was a harmless enough mistake (although plenty serious) and it should not take away from the horse’s success as predictably some are already questioning without knowing the substance or the details.
I’m surprised you have bought into the Rip Van Winkle hype CH.
I wouldn’t touch RVW with a bargepole at 9-2 and could easily see him out of the frame here – Conduit, Twice Over, Archipenko and CIma DT could all be good enough to finish ahead of him
Why won’t your firm give us more than 4/1 then!?
The Derrinstown has not provided the Derby winner for thr last 7 years and whilst I appreciate what youre saying (a la Galileo, High Chaparral) I still believe it currently provides weak favourites on the basis of its past status
2008 Derrinstown Derby: Casual Conquest 3rd Epsom
2007 Derrinstown Derby Trial: Archipenko (unplaced but subsequent Group 1 winner)
2006 Derrinstown Derby Trial: Dylan Thomas (short headed place in the Derby subsequent multiple Group 1 winner from Youmzain)
2004 Derrinstown Derby Trial: Yeats
2003 Derrinstown Derby Trial: Alamshar winner and The Great Gatsby runner up. Alamshar went on to win the Irish Derby and The Great Gatsby placed at Epsom.
2002 Derrinstown Derby Trial: High Chaparral
2001 Derrinstown Derby Trial: GalileoNot forcing any opinion on you what so ever but to suggest this trial is no longer the trial it was just seems bizarre to me. Regularly is producing horses that place in the Derby and go on to be Champions.
Gan Amhras (a colt I like) beat Masterofthehorse in a Naas maiden with both having their first start.
Appreciate what youre saying Aidan, the race most definitely produces champions from the top drawer. However, I’m referring to it as A derby trial in the last 3/4 years.
In the last 3/4 years the Dante has become a bigger pointer towards the Derby winner. Motivator won it in 2005, Authorized in 2007 and Tartan Bearer in 2008. The only blip is Septimus from a race which was run on extremely soft ground.
I’ll offer up a gentlemans bet (no money involved) that the winner of the Dante will place higher in the Derby than Fame & Glory
A bit mean bringing this back up but couldn’t resist. Yet again the Derrinstown Derby trial has proved to be a top class trial for the Derbies with the second at Epsom and the winner and second at The Curragh.
It was Big Brown who was administered with steroids – as are all IEAH Stables horses. Think Curlin came off the drugs in the middle of his 3yo campaign.
There are endless examples of horses not recovering from a trip to Dubai – as I mentioned earlier maybe it’s not just the Americans given what is happening at Godolphin.
No Martin, Curlin was still given Winstrol early in 2008 for sure. Then his owner took him off it.
The Breeders Cup running of Curlin surely had more to do with the different surface than anything else- I was banging on all year here about him being opposable on the poly as a true grinder of a dirt horse.
Curlin was equally as unimpressive on dirt in the build up to the Breeders Cup Classic bid as he was on the synthetic surface itself.
The horse was on steriods, only to be taken off them shortly before or after Dubai when the whole story blew up about Barbaro being administered a shot of steriods every month month or so as part of his training.
I remember either on here or on Talking Horses, there was a picture put up of Curlin early in the year and then one of him much later in the year….he looked a different ainimal.
