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Blackheath
As Robert99 pointed out in an earlier post on the subject, the stand side ground was poached by the end of the meeting, purely as a result of traffic throughout the week. That much is evident on the replays by the divots being kicked up, but that does not mean the ground was any softer, and it certainly didn’t hinder Art Connoisseur coming up the stand rail to win the Golden Jubilee.
Conspiracy theories apart, it’s difficult to see what possible advantage the Ascot executive could feasibly gain from anything other than a fair and even racecourse?Well if you do not accept evidence from trainer’s and jockeys, how about times?
Since 2002 when the Golden Jubilee was first raced on the Saturday alongside the Wokingham the Golden Jubilee has been won on average in a time 0.40 faster than the Wokingham. Spread 1.04 faster to 0.05 slower.
On Saturday the Golden Jubilee was 0.71 slower !Ah the pace must have been slower I hear you say. No it wasn’t. In the Golden Jubilee they went through the first two furlongs marginally faster.
So by design or incompetence the stand side was made much slower than the far side. By around a second might be a fair assessment (0.40 + 0.71), though those that believe there was a stand side advantage before Friday nights watering might claim a bigger turnaround than that.
Is it right that a Clerk of the Course does that ruining the chances of many horses and punters?
I didn’t see Scenic Blast in the paddock so can’t comment on him – I was referring to the point Mark Johnston made – he was clearly implying that the physical appearance of the horse was surprising.
The Breeders Cup does bring us on to another interesting horse in this debate though. Does anyone think Curlin performed and, perhaps more importantly, looked like the same horse that won the Dubai World Cup?
He looked a shadow of the horse imo, in more ways than one.
The key difference is the condition of the horses. If Muhannak had turned up in the States looking like a Hungarian weightlifter, then maybe a few people would have raised an eyebrow
Scenic Blast is 18 plus hands high. Would look more at home in a Budweiser advert.
Do they have drugs that make horses taller as well?
Gee, it must have been a good trip over–he grew a hand or 2 higher while in UK. and as far as Choisir being a ‘monster’ he barely passes above 16 hands
Scenic Blast is 18 plus hands high. Would look more at home in a Budweiser advert.
Do they have drugs that make horses taller as well?
Along with his 7ft 6in jockey and 9ft plus handler they make quite a spectacle for those with tall screen TV.
I didn’t see Scenic Blast in the paddock so can’t comment on him – I was referring to the point Mark Johnston made – he was clearly implying that the physical appearance of the horse was surprising.
The Breeders Cup does bring us on to another interesting horse in this debate though. Does anyone think Curlin performed and, perhaps more importantly, looked like the same horse that won the Dubai World Cup?
He looked a shadow of the horse imo, in more ways than one.
That happens alot though TDK – horses winning the World Cup and coming back totally different to when they went, not just Curlin but the likes of Captain Steve, even Moon Ballad over here and Almutawakel. The Golden Shaheen runner-up Indian Blessing was turned over at odds-on recently and then there’s the various Godolphin horses too.
The Breeders Cup running of Curlin surely had more to do with the different surface than anything else- I was banging on all year here about him being opposable on the poly as a true grinder of a dirt horse.
The Breeders Cup running of Curlin surely had more to do with the different surface than anything else- I was banging on all year here about him being opposable on the poly as a true grinder of a dirt horse.
Curlin was equally as unimpressive on dirt in the build up to the Breeders Cup Classic bid as he was on the synthetic surface itself.
The horse was on steriods, only to be taken off them shortly before or after Dubai when the whole story blew up about Barbaro being administered a shot of steriods every month month or so as part of his training.
I remember either on here or on Talking Horses, there was a picture put up of Curlin early in the year and then one of him much later in the year….he looked a different ainimal.
It was Big Brown who was administered with steroids – as are all IEAH Stables horses. Think Curlin came off the drugs in the middle of his 3yo campaign.
There are endless examples of horses not recovering from a trip to Dubai – as I mentioned earlier maybe it’s not just the Americans given what is happening at Godolphin.
- Total Posts 17716
Well if you do not accept evidence from trainer’s and jockeys, how about times?
Since 2002 when the Golden Jubilee was first raced on the Saturday alongside the Wokingham the Golden Jubilee has been won on average in a time 0.40 faster than the Wokingham. Spread 1.04 faster to 0.05 slower.
On Saturday the Golden Jubilee was 0.71 slower !Ah the pace must have been slower I hear you say. No it wasn’t. In the Golden Jubilee they went through the first two furlongs marginally faster.
So by design or incompetence the stand side was made much slower than the far side. By around a second might be a fair assessment (0.40 + 0.71), though those that believe there was a stand side advantage before Friday nights watering might claim a bigger turnaround than that.
Is it right that a Clerk of the Course does that ruining the chances of many horses and punters?
More poppycock, I’m afraid Blackheath, as a quick look at the GJ replay on ATR will verify.
Not only are the whole field bunched until the final quarter, the early pace is so steady that the commentator (Richard Hoiles) was moved to comment on it – not once, but twice.
Imo, the CoC comes out with a lot more credit than those viewing the results through their pockets; quite possibly, Greg Wood included.I was absolutely delighted that Takeover Target was unable to run this year.
Strange sort of a person who finds delight in the fact that a horse is unwell.
Absolutely pathetic, twisting something I said like that.
I take no pleasure in any horse having any sort of injury or distress. I joined the International League For The Protection Of Horses many years ago to try and help stop live export of horses from the UK. I believe us punters should do more to help the thoroughbred, ex-racehorse. Am a member of Greatwood Rehabilitation Centre who retrain and care for ex-racehorses.
So to suggest I take any pleasure in the suffering of any horse I find offensive.
I was delighted that Takeover Target did not run because he has had an unfair advantage.
A steroid injected in to a ligament (not muscle). That is not a rumour, that is fact. Joe Janiak himself said that was what happened. There are experts who believe Takeover Target would always have the effects of that injection. Therefore, I was delighted he did not run.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Well if you do not accept evidence from trainer’s and jockeys, how about times?
Since 2002 when the Golden Jubilee was first raced on the Saturday alongside the Wokingham the Golden Jubilee has been won on average in a time 0.40 faster than the Wokingham. Spread 1.04 faster to 0.05 slower.
On Saturday the Golden Jubilee was 0.71 slower !Ah the pace must have been slower I hear you say. No it wasn’t. In the Golden Jubilee they went through the first two furlongs marginally faster.
So by design or incompetence the stand side was made much slower than the far side. By around a second might be a fair assessment (0.40 + 0.71), though those that believe there was a stand side advantage before Friday nights watering might claim a bigger turnaround than that.
Is it right that a Clerk of the Course does that ruining the chances of many horses and punters?
More poppycock, I’m afraid Blackheath, as a quick look at the GJ replay on ATR will verify.
Not only are the whole field bunched until the final quarter, the early pace is so steady that the commentator (Richard Hoiles) was moved to comment on it – not once, but twice.
Imo, the CoC comes out with a deal more credit than those viewing the results through their pockets; Greg Wood included, no doubt.To accuse the ‘colonials’ of cheating because they have been able to win a sprint race at Ascot is purely sour grapes–no one in Australia ever accused Dermott Weld of cheating when he won the Melbourne Cup with Vintage Crop and Media Puzzle–in fact the whole of Australia lauded him as on of the world’s great trainers. Of course Johnston’s record of travelling a horse to Australia for a Melbourne Cup is still ridiculed–Double Trigger beaten out of sight
Almost 50 years ago a gentleman by the name of George Ryder imported to Australia a stallion named Star Kingdom–prior to then the major racing in Australia was over a distance, however Ryder used his position in the Sydney Turf Club to create the Golden Slipper Stakes over 6f for 2 year olds–SK sired the first 5 or 6 winners and his sons went on to sire even more winners. From that time the whole landscape of Australian racing changed dramatically with precocious sprinters becoming the norm.. By selectively breeding for speed, and rearing in an environment much more favourable to greater bone growth and muscle development the modern Australian sprinter has evolved into what we see today,
Australia’s most popular race is still the Melbourne Cup over 2 mile, but it is only 1 of 4 races nation wide over that distance–at least 75% or races in Australia would be over distances of less than 1 mile. The greatest issue facing Australian horses going to UK, and NH horses going to Australia is the problem of travelling–some travel well, some don’t. Those horses who have raced in the Golden Jubilee from Australia have all been backing up from the King Stand–my understanding is that Choisir (who was extremely tough, and won up to a mile) is the only horse to ever win both.
Come off it, you think that it is because Australia has some sort of big boned / muscled breed coming from 50 years of selective breeding?
Choisir is
by an Irish stallion
Danehill Dancer who shuttled to Australia. Out of a mare who was by 1972 (
British
) Dewhurst winner Lunchtime.
Takeover Target
by a British stallion
.
Scenic Blast
by a British stallion
.
I remember after Dermott Weld won the Melbourne Cup, some Aussies wanted to stop any other Europeans running.
The Aussies did not accuse the Europeans of cheating because there was no cheating going on. Although there were many who wanted Luca Cumani’s second Bauer disqualified. Even after (I believe) he had taken instructions from a vet employed by Western Australia Racing Club (or whatever they’re called.In 2006 an American horse Honour In War, was prevented from running in the Cox Plate because of steroid levels. Were the Australians just being Xenophobic?
It is not about sour grapes or anything like that. Questions should be asked. Can you come up with any other reasons for this muscle definition other than 50 years of selective breeding / evolving? Because that arguement just does not add up. (In my opinion).
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Two questions, Mark – does the use of top class British stallions not fall under the banner of selective breeding, and what factors effect bone growth and muscle development?
Doubtless amongst those signing up to Mr Johnston’s allegations are the same people who bought the nefarious uneven watering theory of the mysterious Ascot bias. Lazy minds looking for easy answers in both cases.
Please don’t bring totally different arguements in to this one. That is in itself a lazy thing to do.
For what it is worth I do believe there was a draw advantage but doubt it had anything to do with watering.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
A steroid injected in to a ligament (not muscle). That is not a rumour, that is fact. Joe Janiak himself said that was what happened. There are experts who believe Takeover Target would always have the effects of that injection. Therefore, I was delighted he did not run.
Probably a good job too, as with only one ligament pumped up, he’d have probably run round in circles?
Two questions, Mark – does the use of top class British stallions not fall under the banner of selective breeding, and what factors effect bone growth and muscle development?
Would not class Celtic Swing or Scenic top class stallions. The point is whether it is "selective breeding" or not; it can hardly be claimed this bone / muscle growth is due to AUSTRALIAN selection. As the breeding is essentially European anyway; so if selective breeding works in Australia it should / would work here too.
I am not an expert in this field, but I don’t really see it as a bone or size issue. We have big or tall horses in the UK just as much as in Australia. I do question what makes Australian and to some degree American horses more muscular. May be as Mark Johnstone (a vet) said himself, it could be because the Aussies have better trainers.
Value Is EverythingDifferent stallions adapt to different conditions. Ask any Aussie for a list of top class stallions in Australia and I doubt any would come up with Storm Cat, SW or Montjeu – simply because their progeny don’t go in Australian conditions ie. firm courses and speedy 2yo races.
Their horses are bred for speed – the biggest race (after the Melbourne Cup) is the Golden Slipper, worth $2m+ which in itself has a number of high prized lead-ups, the Blue Diamond being the most obvious.
Why would we breed for speed – our sprinters don’t sell so well at the sales and the races at best are worth $200k?
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