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I am sniffing a theory that Montjeu might be one of those stallions who doesn’t stamp his stock but is quite ‘giving’ to the dam’s characteristics.
Rather than guessing – go do your research. The idea that Montjeu does not "stamp" his stock is pretty laughable.
For the record Jan Vermeer’s dam (Shadow Song) won at just under 12 furlongs in France. Shadow Song is a half sister to a May Hill winner who ran with credit in the Cheshire and Yorkshire Oaks. Being by Montjeu, Jan Vermeer is absolutely guaranteed to get the 12 furlongs fine at Epsom, particularly seeing as he got 10 furlongs without any trouble in bottomless ground at 2.
Montjeu is a huge influence on stamina, much more so than Galileo and both certainly stamp their stock.
This is what you said about Jan Vermeer on the other thread –
"Jan Vermeer is not a Epsom Horse.
He is a huge chunky animal. Massive hind quarters. Can’t see him handling that turn and that camber. He could well be a superstar but jeez i be astonished if a horse that big could negotiate at Epsom."
Biggest load of nonsence – being a big horse does not mean you cannot handle Epsom. Sariska, Yeats, Scorpion, Sea The Stars to name but a few were hardly small/nimble types yet all won at Epsom.
"Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you need a small, nimble, diminutive horse at a course like Epsom where it’s rather difficult for a big horse to negotiate those contours and tight turn at Tattenham Corner? Unoriginal I know, but I can’t see SNA not winning this despite a lacklustre Guineas performance. Should be prime come June."
Spot on and i would agree with you as i said a few pages back and couldn’t fathom how Jan Vermeer would handle Epsom being such a big robust Horse. But i saw class i saw real class on Sunday. I was very doubtful that would have the speed over 1m2f to do what he did but he did it so easy and classy that i be surprised if he didn’t handle the Epsom Downs. He is pure class and when Johnny switched him is was a Tank with Dancing Feet. He is geting strong on Betfair and John Magnier won’t let a opportunity like this pass him by because Cape Blanco(may not stay but i think he will) Midas Touch(may not be good enough) and St Nich( could bomb out like the Guineas). Jan Vermeer is the Top card in the Deck to cover all bases.
I think Cape Blanco will go to France and win the 1m2f race? perfect for Stud. Need a real good 1m2f that can step up to 1m4f. Only other Galileo is Rip Van Winkle who is best at a mile by the looks of things. So they got both Sons of Galileo bases covered. I would expect Cape Blanco to step up to say the King George or a 1m4f race when needed for the Stud Book.
So i think we may have JV/SNA/MT all race in the Epsom Derby. The Work on Monday Morning before the Derby will reveal all on Betfair. All you sharp Shooters keep your cup of coffee and watch the price movements very carefully regarding JV
Yes this is a really fair/accurate guide to the views of Irish racing followers…and you agree with the comments Wallace? As others said – betfair fodder.
For the record I am not saying who is right or who is wrong – I am just pointing out that everywhere bar the Racing Post this morning suggests O’Brien did not let the stewards look at the horse at all yesterday. That is incorrect – he did but not for a second time after the horse was iced and polticed.
For the record Aidan O’Brien did allow the vets to inspect the horse – and they did. When that was done they went and got him iced and poulticed when the vets came back again to see him trot. That is when they said no as they did not want to aggrivate any injury.
They dont – for a good few years at this stage.
Until Zarkava came up with this on the 2yo Summary thread last year, I didn’t even know that they had Flat racing at Punchestown!
Punchestown…now a Group 1 track (as opposed to a Grade 1 track for NH horses) to fit the arguement? Seriously this place is going so far off track with trends on bloody everything without looking at the individual horse itself.
If you are going to stick to your trends, rather than picking and choosing them – then surely you will have Midas Touch ahead of St Nicholas Abbey now…how many O’Brien Derby winners or horses that have run well at Epsom have ran well in the Guineas? Similar to his Dante record I would say…
Sticking blindly to such patterns is of course ridiculous – there will be some trends but ruling a horse out before you have seen him is just bizarre particularly when he was well touted last year. O’Brien did run future Group 1 winners Septimus and Frozen Fire in the race.
Lol Cape Blanco. You guys fall for the hype hook, line and sinker. Name me one O’Brien Dante horse that’s run well in the Derby. He’s got an entry for the Derrinstown, O’Brien’s favourite Derby trial, on Sunday, and he’s skipping it. He’s got no chance. St. Nick will win – only Workforce and Chabal are in with a hope.
For a yard not firing they have just had their 14th winner of the season. Because they are not cleaning up the big races does not mean there has to be a bug or something wrong with the yard. O’Brien has had runners outside of the UK….
Eliza won 4 of her 5 starts at two including the Breeders Cup Fillies Juvenile. She won the Santa Anita Oaks (Grade 1) at three, placed third against the colts in the Santa Anita Derby (Grade 1) and was then runner up when odds on for the Kentucky Oaks. She was a top class filly in the States and was anything but normal.
As for the US pedigrees in Europe – you really need to do a bit more work before throwing around statements like that.
Zoffany should easily get 7f plus in time.
From this stable that the norm.
US Pedigree’s are messy in Europe….
She only ran twice and made her debut in a Group 1. Obviously the Group 1 is their but must have been exceptional crap to win it on debut.
Zoffany ran won easily today…..looks a decent sprinter for the future
First winner Samuel Morse….pedigree is nothing out of the ordinary but did it well. A step up in trip should suit.
He is out of a Champion racemare in America – Eliza won the Breeders Cup Juvenile Fillies and was runner up in the Kentucky Oaks. You have high standards.
One of the most amusing posts I have read – to think so much could be read into so little. Mordin is a joke – that piece on the timing of the gallops was embarrassing.
Montjeu is an influence on stamina – well you do not need to be a breeding genius to recognise that. Equally you do not need to be a racing or breeding expert to clearly see St Nicholas Abbey does not look like the typical Montjeu (more a Sadler’s Wells) nor race/or travel like one.
It too Sadler’s Wells an age to sire an Epsom Derby – you were probably on that bandwagon as well? Every sire will have a pattern of breeding – Montjeu clearly imparts plenty of stamina into his progeny. But breeding is not a science and every so often one confounds.
Would I back St Nicholas Abbey at the price? No I much prefer his stablemate Fencing Master at the prices, but equally I am not going to blindly rule him out based on his breeding given that he has so far confounded it by quickening up impressively from off the pace off slow gallops.
Galileo and Sadler’s Wells were both better known for their 10-12 furlong animals but both have proved themselves capable of throwing top class milers and Guineas performers e.g King Of Kings, Rip Van Winkle, New Approach, Refuse To Bend, Entrepreneur etc. To me SNA looks in every way a classy Sadler’s Wells horse rather than your typical Montjeu e.g Scoprpion, Hurricane Run etc who were both the typical big and imposing Montjeu types rather than the finer/narrower SNA.
Andy, a little more about St. Nicholas Abbey.
First of all, the fact that Ladbrokes didn’t price him in the first place for the Guineas says a lot.
Second, a bit from Nick Mordin.
‘Aidan O’Brien’s Racing Post Trophy runners have gone on to contest 14 Group 1’s over a mile or less at three without once reaching the first four. They’ve done so 22 times out of 45 at longer distances. So far 24 horses older than two sired by St Nicholas Abbey’s sire Montjeu have tried to win a Group 1 over less than ten and a half furlongs. They all failed.’
Third, St. Nick galloped in the second group at The Curragh, not the first group with all the 6-8f horses. He galloped with
1st MIKHAIL GLINKA
2nd 0.25 ST NICHOLAS ABBEY
3rd 2.50 FAME AND GLORY
4th 3.25 AGE OF AQUARIUS
5th 4.25 MIDAS TOUCH
6th 6.00 FLYING CROSS
7th 7.00 AT FIRST SIGHT
8th 7.25 DON CARLOS
9th 8.50 BIG OCCASION
10th 9.00 RAIN FORESTYou should probably ask or at least state where you got the list and info from before taking it from elsewhere.
Was due back this season but for injury again – planning on having him back again next season – so no he is not retired.
The hardest thing I find about this place is the number of sections….General Racing, Big Race Discussion and Cheltenham all cover the same thing and it is impossible (or too much hard work to follow it). For instance the Maplewood Hurdle was discussed in the Big Race Section but then all the fall out was in the Cheltenham Section….is there really any need for both sections when the National Hunt season is in full flow? When logging for a quick look its a pain in the ass to have to scan through each section of the forum.
You might not have an interest in it, no one is telling you to…but I think a little more respect is required. If an American came on here downplaying Sea The Star’s performances in the Arc and or Epsom in comparison to what Rachel Alexandra has done I would say the same thing. If he does not care, has no interest or understanding of the Arc and Epsom – he should then simply not comment on it rather than talk something down that he blatently does not get.
For the record I think insular is a bad thing – no harm in having a preference of your European racing (by the sounds of things the UK and Ireland is your only interest – STS needed have bothered turning up in the Arc then)but it shouldn’t cut you off from the wider worlds racing particularly when it impacts on our own so much in terms of breeding etc.
Well to be honest I do not see how it is possible not to rate that previous posting of yours as arrogant and certainly insular in your view of American racing and racing outside of Europe in general. Thank goodness the likes of Dermot Weld (Melbourne Cups etc), Godolphin, Aidan O’Brien, Michael Stoute along with the likes of connections of the Australian sprinters, connections of Overdose, Luca Cumani for spotting Falbrav in Italy etc etc do not follow your apparent line of thinking in that the racing world ends just on the border of Paris or just because it is different it means little or nothing.
Each to their own.
Insular – yes I am and I don’t see a problem with that, you make it sound as if being insular is bad.
One has to define boundaries in all walks of life and there is more than enough racing in this country and to a lesser extent Ireland to keep one interested. To me a competitive turf handicap in this country is of more interest that an all weather race in America.
I don’t accept the arrogant point though.
If I were to insist others shared my view that would be arrogant.
If I were to insult those who took an opposing view, that would be arrogant.
If I were to suggest I was right and everyone else wrong, that would be arrogant.
Simply expressing a view is not arrogance – being intolerant of others views is, I suggest, supreme arrogance.
I make no secret I have very little interest in American racing – I would suggest most British football fans have little or any interest in MLS in the USA – does that make them insular and arrogant?
Do you have an interest in racing in every country in the world where it takes place?
If so perhaps you could give us your considered opinion on next weeks racing in India.
If you have no interest in Indian racing are you not also being insular, but just with different boundaries than me?
Your quoting of the actions of trainers is irrelevant in the context of the point I am making – it is their job to be aware of the international racing scene.
