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To my mind he did look held, however if you remember him as a two year old he never travelled on the bridle through his races, and always seemed to be pushed along.
JohnJ.
Quote: from clivex on 2:27 pm on June 6, 2006[br]Johnj
Probably, but not sure what your point is
Clive,
Not sure what your previous point is to be honest.  Are you suggesting that KF and AoB ran the horse and chose to ignore that the horse may have been unfit to race? If that is the case, Fallon must be a very brave man to sit on a horse going over 30 miles an hour in probably one of the roughest races on the flat calendar. I’m sure he wanted to risk being ejected from an unsound horse and shipped on to the ground to be trampled on by three or four horses going hell for leather……
Get a grip…..
Quote: from clivex on 10:09 am on June 6, 2006[br]Frankly some of the guff I am reading above appears just a little bit over defensive I would say… Frankly I suspect that there was a doubt of some kind, but percentages were weighed up. KF clearly had something on his mind in the stalls and his blaming the course bit looks suspiciously like deflecting from the issue. But whats happened has happened and we will probably never know the full truth (although there have been some forthright opinions from some horsemen)
This stuff about AOB and KF being more lin love with horses than anyone else is based on what? I would suggest they are no more or less than most trainers and jockeys.
They are a great team of course, but this sentimentality is just a bit silly
Clivex,
Do you think if something was amiss KF would have pulled him up before entering the straight?
JohnJ.
Quote: from clivex on 12:50 pm on June 1, 2006[br]<br>Well what i mean is that if ( to my eyes) the slightly green way of running with high head carriage is to be corrected in time, i would trust Stoute more than most<br>
Hardly equates to "Cleary" the top trainer…..
Quote: from clivex on 12:17 pm on June 1, 2006[br]Watch Riyalma again…  I didnt like the style of his racing and epsom exposes that sort of thing
Clearly with the top trainer…but not sure about this one just yet.
What does clearly with the top trainer mean Clive? Also she is actually a filly as it is the oaks ;) .
Clivex,
Who said I disagreed! ;). You could be right, sounds a bit like Footstepsinthesand all over again. However, I really doubt that they would retire him on the basis of getting turned over in the Irish Guineas. If I were running Coolmore, I would not retire him on that basis. They have a number of stallions who have a better or equal  race record in the 1m – 1m2f division, i.e. Giants Causeway, ROG, FootSteps and Oratario.
So, as TDK does state, running him in the top sprint races and a go at the Breeders Cup at the end of the season would be more beneficial to Coolmore IMO.
JohnJ.
Clivex,
It was quite clear that HN would have beaten SP in the Dewhurst, your grasping at straws to state otherwise. <br>As a two year old I do believe that HN was a superior horse to SP.
One more thing! You have been pointing to the fact the Septimus has to pushed and shoved through his races – quite correct! However does not mean a thing in relation to his ability to win a Derby or travel around Epsom. In the 2002 Derby, High Chaparral showed exactly the same trait, Murtagh was pushing and shoving for most of the race…..
JohnJ.
Quote: from Drone on 10:33 pm on May 8, 2006[br]Flat oval tracks or ‘across the flat’ at Newmarket may be deemed fairer tests of a horse as none can have the excuse of not acting on them but the contours and cambers of Epsom provide a great test of a young horse’s atheticism and balance, as well as jockeyship. The ‘complete’ racehorse should be able to adapt and show it’s form under a variety of circumstances in my opinion.
I would agree that Epsom should be a one-off test for 3yos prior to the acid test of their mettle and ability taking on their elders in the all-aged ‘championships’ on conventional tracks later in the season; but the Derby and Oaks remain a  valuable education and above all a terrific spectacle.
Cheltenham and Sandown have their idiosyncrasies but I doubt any NH follower would say that championship events shouldn’t be run there.
Fine card at Kelso tomorrow Grasshopper; my heart is there; my head at Chester and York.<br>
Could not have put it better myself Drone, excellent post.
JohnJ.
I’m baffled by this too, I wouldn’t risk Fondmort if I owned him in the national. If he was ever going to be tested over a longer trip perhaps he should have run in the Gold Cup.
JohnJ.
Down to 6/1 in some lists now
Unbelievable. Has there ever been a horse that has achieved so little that has been fav for the GC?
Weak year or not, this seems plain daft…
Clivex,
Just want to stir it up a little, why was this "plain daft" as you put it?
JohnJ
Would that include his Sun Alliance win last year Clive? :biggrin:
(Edited by johnjdonoghue at 1:02 pm on Mar. 20, 2006)
Regardless of whether this thread was a joke or not, this horse is cut above anything on soft ground. WoA clearly likes soft groumd, but doesn’t get 3m on it. With the very quick conditions, I think KK would certainly have beaten WoA, but we’ll never know. I’ve only actually just seen the race, and beating Hedgehunter by only a couple of lengths i think is really pretty poor form.
Jackane,
How do you explain that one, WoA is a much better horse on good ground, just look at his performance in the Supreme novices of 2004.
Johnj<br>
It’s a damn shame that Trabolgan wasn’t in the race. He would have been my pick certainly, and I think a short priced fav. <br>WoA will NOT stay 3m on soft ground, and Hedgehunter in 2nd really deppreciates the form I feel, and am not convinced about Forget The Past. The only excuse I can make for BoS is that the ground didn’t suit one bit. His 4th in 2004 was on soft, and has done nothing in the other 3 years, so i’m praying for rain next year, cos he deserves it more than any other horse in training.
Don’t know how he does deserve it! He has had 4 goes, doesn’t travel or jump at speed…..
Big fan of both WoA and Trabologan, both can jump at speed and travel.
Very difficult for me to understand how a reasonably talented horse oin the flat thats won a couple of so so races over hurdles (which applies to much of the field of course) can be considered a banker?
Clivex,
Sounds like the profile of the 97 Sun Alliance winner…
