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No they do not. They exist as entirely autonomous units, are totally self-reliant, with each picking it’s own targets. They may have a common enemy, and they may have common tactics, but this does not mean they are a ‘group’.
<br>Not provable either way on reflection, but imo they do communicate, have common aims and therefore, argueably are a group.
There have been several terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia in recent years. Granted, many are directed at Western targets, but this is to create instability in the Saudi Government, which militants hope to overthrow. <br><br>Easiest way is get rid of government?, other people might even support it. Seems silly to attack potential allies/customers, who want the oil.
No they do not. They exist as entirely autonomous units, are totally self-reliant, with each picking it’s own targets. They may have a common enemy, and they may have common tactics, but this does not mean they are a ‘group’. <br>see first para reply.
This doesn’t shock me at all. You would probably get the exact same response from every Jew and Christian on the planet as well.
Kind of agree and disagree kinda……
Will not even mention I###:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: except to say its a symtom but not the cause.
Grasshopper,
There have been a series of bombings, not 9/11 and the recent London bombings, instanbul, philipines so the arguement is not just with bush blair and western economies.
The best way I can draw a comparison is:- these terrorists to the muslim faith:are the National front to the conservative party.
The IRA were not a tangible enemy, yet they were there and still are. How did the population in NI see them? IF AL-Quieda are against the saudi situation, then why are there attacks always against western things there never against their own leaders. Simply because these terrorists are against "the great satan" as they call the usa.
The group now know as Al-Queida were the Islamic army for the liberation of holy places, the world islamic front for Jihad against jews and crusaders,the islamic salvation foundation and many many more all bin laden brought to them was funds. No there is not a decicated command structure, but they do exist tangibly as a group. Moreover when fighting with the Mujadin in afganistan against the soviets (the godless enemy), they were especially known for their ruthlessness in killing prisoners etc. things totally against civilised war actions (if ever such a thing can exist).
The nationality thing:- the whole point is that they are muslim first and their country of birth second. Bit like a teuchter being a "wee-free" first then scottish.:biggrin:
As I said in my earlier thread, I know many muslims and what many people do not realise, being a muslim does not mean like a christain you go to church on a sunday then to the pub for a roast dinner, it is an holistic faith. Two of them are very close friends ( I get invited to family celebrations), both of them are UK born universlty educated devout Muslims. Talk and debate is greatly enjoyed in their house. One debate was about this very issue, when pushed on the question "if it came down to it and you had to support your country or your faith" the emphatic reply was "faith". On the point of Al-Quieda, whilst condeming the deaths neither would condem Al-Quieda, excusing them as mis-guided.
Within the Quoran there are many references to the infidel the general translation of which is any non-muslim. here is the nub in general the quoran mainly tells muslims to get on with each other and the world but in places it definately says death to the infidel it is one theses actions that the fatwa’s and Jihads come from.
So its not their call for global islamic domination it is the creed that drives them.
They are true Muslims a bit like the range of christianity from the baptists who will set up an alter on the living room table and celebrate quietly amongst themselves to the full blown catholic or russian orthodox that uses gold, and expensive buildings on to the "mad american" churches. Most of the non-ira terroism in recent times has come from within muslim groups or countries, who see people as an army of the christain faith.
I agree with you on the saudi-taliban comparison and that was my point and if you think for a moment that removing the present Saudi government would change it for the better, I suggest you think again.
I would suggest that the modern idiom is equality for women, children of religions being educated together and an acceptance or at least a tolerance of other peoples views or religions. In the main the muslim faith embraces non of these and therefore I reiterate "remains in the dark ages".
You and many others here have become obsessed with Bush Blair Iraq IMO in fact my feeling is that if Blair set fire to himself tommorrow you would find fault with that.:biggrin:.
I will also point out that Blair and Bush are both deeply religeous men and may also have a "religeous viewpoint" on their decisions. For which I have no support either!! But they are here, in charge and not choosing but HAVING to make decisions, their parties throw "yes" men as advisors and supporters and create a kind of "cocoon" that often is outside reality, they are not able to argue "down the pub" and get outside views in. I personally dislike Bush and much of what he does and stands for, I am also not a great liker of blair, but the rest of the Europeans proved from the two world wars will sit on their thumbs, then expect to be got out of trouble afterwards. their choice to appease and talk has been proven not to work. We stood up to the IRA, they have not achieved their aims by the bullet and are now pursueing the political stance which is working, why can not these people do that?
IMO if blair and bush are guilty of anything it is the protectionism of trade, because over the centuries IMO it has been trade not wars that have changed the world and the way it operates, simply because views not only goods are exchanged. China now is a perfect example.
I’m sorry grasshopper you seem fixed with the Iraq war as a focal point for all that is bad in our country and the world. again I refer to my friends (one is a shiite and the other a sunni) both of whom FULLY supported the war. One of them is an iraqie desendant and still has close family there.
try reading Al-Qaeda: Osama Bin Laden’s Army of Terrorists <br> <br>by Phillip Margulies and the quoran
Finally grasshopper, thanks for the concern of my input, having travelled the world and being the type to go off the beaten track (whilst driving along the berlin corridor b4 the soviet block opened up, I was the one who had to go off the corridor to see what would happen) and ask "awkward questions", having also been politically involved ( I have arranged three demo’s) in the past. i also read the times guardian independant and the sun regularly, and watch the news on sky bbc itn cnn and abc i also speak four lanuages and regularly listen to foreign news in their own language. may I offer you some advice………:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:.
IMO these faiths (not only muslim) cause more deaths, ignorance and poverty in the world than anything else and ALL are an anathema to a civilised modern caring Society. In the majority of the faiths the balance is towards sharing and tolerance, the muslim faith is not!! Until this is changed there will always be an AL-Queida or some similar group around.
…… a thought will we be able to have this dicussion with the impending incitment of religion laws?….<br>
Stuff a compulsory charity tax, have it spent by some committees on building funrniture and fancy paintings, if I WANT to give to charity I will and in own way, if simply because the government of the day might not think my charity was worthwile.
Yesterdays bombings in London are IMO the actions of total cowards, if they disagree with our actions let whichever country they belong to, declare war on us. But there is the rub, no country will align themselves with them. Some counties are sympathetic to their cause-get rid of the infidel, but the trouble is their aims are to get rid of all of us.
It is easy to move into I’ll protect me and mine mode, however these people do not think that pulling out of Iraq or any such thing will do. Their stated aim is for an Islamic world. I.e. they want to thrust their views down your throat. Look at Afghanistan and the way it treated women and education. So all that happens is you put off the inevitable, there comes a point where the nasty thing has to be dealt with.
Their religion and beliefs remain in the dark ages, they will not consider as many countries have that their religion whilst a laudable thing in some ways, comes second too sensible ideas that make life better.
These misguided suicide bombers are expecting to go to Valhalla, yet any thinking man knows there is no afterlife. There in lies the rub they prey on ignorant people who know no better. I wonder for instance how many of the Al-Queida leaders will not die of old age, or being caught with their pants down.?
If it had not been the Bush and Blair axis it would have been someone else IMO as the underlying war their enemy are waging is religious not political. There are no stated aims like the IRA or the animal rights people just a desire for the furthering of their religion.
Spain capitulated after the Madrid bombings and has IMO fuelled them.
Some (or all) of us may not like Blair and Bush and may disagree with they way they have been elected, and may disagree with some if not all of their policies but IMO opinion they are fundamentally right in being totally against a group that bombs to get its message across, not raises the sensible debate. A group that would rob generations of education, women’s rights and the freedom of speech.
The Moslem people and nations in general are not evil ( I have many CLOSE friends who are Muslim), many of them have a real quandary, because their religious beliefs say they must support these people, yet they live in and understand our society and feel betrayed.
This one I am afraid will not go away, and there will be many advances and set backs in the long run innocent people will lose their lives, no one except these people in their right minds feel that is necessary.
They are fighting a similar thing to the crusades, they do not want to invade and run the UK but want the UK and all the world to follow a religion.
Finally I personally have zero tolerance for those that use violence in any way as their argument, or to further their personal/family/religious aims, yes there are many things to fight, but until this battle is ended we will have to accept the inevitable.
The only solution IMO is education worldwide and allowing all people to achieve their possibilities, this will take generations if not hundreds of years to achieve. Me, my children and possibly my grandchildren may not be the people who profit, but I will not sit idly by and go into self protectionist mode, my great grand parents did not nor my grandparents not my parents and I will repay the debt I owe them to my children.<br>
I suppose its quite easy to slag off the stars for their actions, but what have you actually done, to change things?
I certainly believe in the nanny being there, but never have agreed with nationalisation, dynamic business never works when run by comittee IMO. Nor will it work with too much governmental interfernce.
The highlights I have to agree with corm about REM, but seeing Pink Floyd once again was magical after which my grolsh ridden body sucumbed to sleep, gosh age is so wearysome.
I was glad that not only was aid mentioned but also the corruption of these countries and the subsidies to European and american farmers. Seeing the girl saved by live aid moved me to tears and yes aid does work for catastrophes, the asian tsuami has proved this, but these things have been happening in africa for many decades now whilst Aid has been pumped in. They will continue to happen whilst some one gives them or borrows them (with no payback time and often "saying aw keep it") a fiver.
The problem is though that the price of really helping them will be higher food prices, and the clearance of more "wild" areas of the world, similar to the clearances of forest for agriculture in Brasil.
So IMO there is no fix, except to educate these people and to hope that they will use this to further themselves and their nations.
Apart from the obvious stuff like chirpy chirpy cheep cheep, if i fly, also the stuff by tangerine dream floyd and yes that is only valid when your wrecked, woman in red, he was not to know that, that bridge was so low (max boyce) all make me cringe as does funky moped.<br>But the killer for me was Take a look at my girl friend she’s the only one I’ve got (supertramp), cos we listened I laughed, she left!!! you win some you lose some.
and you will need it renew your passport and to pass security at check-in gst into offices buildings etc etc etc etc etc etc.
We either need a mega riot, civil disobience or something similar but believe me we will all have one.
it will not be the government that will enforce it but you will need it to make see a doctor, renew licenses, use a bank, book tickets but you’ll be free, skint, il,l not be able to drive nor go on holiday.:biggrin:
Just having returned from this part of the world, my thoughts on the G8 thing:-<br>before anymore aid is sent to the third world it needs to be pointed out that most of it does not reach the people it is intended for unless it is a camera catastrophy ie the cameras are filming a drought or some similar event.
Because bribery is the norm to import goods in to tanzania for instance, bribes need to be paid to the import ministry, the dock authorites, the dockers and dock security (or it gets broken into). No bribe it is seriously delayed, damaged or just disappears. As the container progresses to its unloading point the police will inevitably "appear" and find some reason to impound the vehicle unless the appropriate bribe is paid.
Secondly no way can I support the "tribe" stuff that goes on in many countries, wrong tribe your container takes longer kinda stuff.
Thirdly in conversation with friends over there I sort of asked what the problem was and the reply quite simply was, well if you earn no money to buy food you just go and hunt or pick some, also when you build a house if it falls down whats the point of repairing it when the materiels are there to build another!!!
Good aid would be the end of EU cap grants and the same with the yanks farmers subsidies.
I had no intention to partake in it but I am now opposed to it, especially with the involvement of the catholic church, I agree with grasshoppers view on the vatican profits but until the vatican stops its senseless condemnation of the use of condoms then I could not be part of it I may watch the odd band on the tele.
But the main thrust of the demo is to reduce debt and increase aid both of which are worthless until 1st world farmers have no subsidies and we toughen on the tribe and bribe stuff nothing IMO opinion will change and no matter how good the intentions are nothing will change.<br>
Right so after digesting most of this thread i now have a problem with my sexuality, I started of vanilla hetro as NV would put it. then had a go at steves images phew no images….. however I got women on women…. dam I’m a lesbian!!!:biggrin:
grasshopper<br>-In 10 years time, we will all be locked-up for our own good – 10 years to late IMO:biggrin:
