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The commentary for the marcel boussac was absolutely woeful, i backed Finisceal Beo and thought she was well beat (didnt have a paper so didnt know what colours i was in) until she was 3 lengths clear and then they actually gave her a mention, bbc racing team are complete tubes anyway and i generally find that the level of knowledge they convey is below that of the average punter, They were very good at talking up finisceal beo after she won but never evengave her a mention beforehand, despite the fact that jim bolger (quite a shrewd trainer in internationals) had removed teofilo from the criterium and was clearly only there to run finisceal beo, but like lord budden on william hill radio once said- theyve probably never had a bet in their lives.
Look at ascot, they spend more time trying to promote the concept of ascot as a grotesque celebration of social class than actually focusing on the great week’s racing that takes place there.
When they ask their celebrity tipster Jodie kidd who is going to win today, and she starts her reply with "i dont really know a lot about horses…." that pretty much sums it up.
And dont even get me started on that James Sherwood…
Last year was a great example, in terms of brilliant horses missing the british classics – Shamardal was in the form at the time to have won the guineas and hurricane Run (like scorpion) IMO was sent to the wrong derby (if theyd went to epsom a day earlier it would have been some race)
I backed her each way and was still gutted, i thought she had it, was very impressed though condsidering she was slowly away, i thought that was a bad omen straight away (i think the jockey was worried about giving something first run on soft ground), i suspect shes the type that will go on anything so hopefully she’ll get anothe run before the winter.
Wouldnt mind seeing a price for her for the guineas as i dont think this sander camillo looks the sort to stay a mile and i havent seen much else yet that looks unbeatable.
Probably just speculation, but lets face it, godolphins recent moves to integrate their 2yos with the rest of the stable at bin suroors yard have not been a great success, by and large, and with shiekh mohammed now starting to get into serious spending mode at the yearling sales, perhaps they wish to replace david loder with someone else who is clearly good with 2yos (noseda is also pretty good with them). Dont think they’ll ask o’brien.lol
It is probably just speculation thouigh.
jackane24 Posted on 12:30 pm on Sep. 28, 2006 <br>Haha, glad to see that he has seen the error of his ways.
‘I say forget the hype. This is a slow horse that should be opposed relentlessly from now on.’
I’m actually going to use that quote as my opening line in an article I’m writing on why ratings should be ignored.
Oh Irony!
Beleive it or not, i dont need someone to tell me if a horse is good or not.
On a few points about the horses mentioned, Ivy creek showed afine turn of foot behind art deco (who i had that day) at chester and looked to be a very smart horse, however he is by gulch and looks to have all the quirks which most gulch horses have. I wouldnt say hes cack.
Also galient didnt exactly flop in the queens vase, he finished second to a horse who (deliberately looking) hung all over him a furlong out and forced him off the rail position which he had put himself in, and despite the fact that kevin darley picked up a ban, the result was not overturned, which is typical of british stewards really, but to me he was the moral winner.
The bit about george washington makes no sense and i find it hard to beleive that anyone involved in racing would say something as ridiculous and not be sacked.
I actually had a good ascot this year, despite a spell of seconditis, i found it quite enjoyable, however, the group1s, which i like the most (queen anne, st james palace and prince of wales) werent really high class (araafa was good in the SJP but he was always going to win it as he had no serious opposition). Papal bull and red rocks was a good race in the King edward and Yeats was probably the highlight of ascot for me.
trackside528 Posted on 11:36 pm on Sep. 26, 2006
——————————————————————————–<br>Quote: from Bulwark on 6:04 pm on Sep. 26, 2006<br>i couldnt beleive how many idiots were yakking that ouija board was going to route dylan thomas, (who subsequently beat her whilst not looking anywhere near 100%).<br>——————————————————————————–
Dont understand why your saying Dylan Thomas was nowhere near his best in the Irish Champion… personally I am inclined to think that is about as good as the horse is… his irish derby win was impressive but who knows what he beat… <br>
I agree that its hard to know what dylan thomas beat in the irish derby, but visibly the horse had a better action and looked on much better terms with himself than at leaopardstown, he wasnt as bad at leopardstown as he was at york though, where he pulled the whole way.
I actually suspect (like o’brien) that Dylan Thomas is a better horse at 1m2f, however he has looked visibly under par on both starts there.
But let me ask you something – do you rate any of the following?……Acropolis, North Light, Warrsan, Valixir, Pride, Mamool, Tap Dance City or Grey Swallow?
As greats? Hardly!
Maybe you rate one or two of these…..Shamdala, Westerner, Reefscape, Cherry Mix or Norse Dancer?
Nope!
You surely must rate one of the following…..Electrocutionist, Manduro, David Junior or Notnowcato?
And again, no!
It is true that norse dancer ran a couple of good races in his time as did westerner but neither horse is really a good yardstick.
Electrocutionist and david junior are two competent horses on their day but were fresh and looked terrible for it when beaten by ouija board in the POW, Electroccutionist was green as grass that day, he looked like he didnt know if he was coming or going. Thus the PoW was hardly a good renewal this year. David junior still looking under par then humped her in the eclipse.
I have never said that ouija board is a complete tube, like i have said, she is a good filly and an average group1 horse, she is not, and never will be a great.
Do i rate Alexandrova?
As a filly she is clearly good but she has not yet faced the colts, and when she does then i can better assess just how poor the horses she has so far beaten are. I have a suspicion that she will probably be average like ouija board, but i will not decide until she is tested.
All in all ouija board is a consistant 123 horse as i have mentioned which will win her fillies races aswell as below par colts races.
Would I be right in assuming by your faith in ouija boards unrealistic abilities that you are female, by any chance?
Also, i detect that if a horse wins a group1 you instantly think it qualifies as a great horse, regardless of what it beats on the day or in what style.
An intersting runner in the Oh So Sharp stakes on saturday. This should confirm if her debut was a one off, hopefully she goes well.
The way i see it Horatio nelson was unlucky in the dewhurst after a very suspect ride, that was obvious to everyone who watched it. Straight after i thought that both horses looked destined for 1m2f, looking at their allround pace and turns of foot.
Sir percy ran well in guineas, he was up with the pace all the way and probably done his best work in the 7th furlong keeping his momentum going into the 8th furlong, he was no match for a great george washington that day but i, for one, thought that the guineas was a good one and sir percy ran a good race. Straight after which i said he wanted 1m2f, as he only lacked pace against george but it was a good performance.
The derby however, as ive said before i didnt rate one bit. It was a poor race and sir percy won it in the style of a good 1m2f horse in a poor 1m4f race. Straight after i thought he wants to be dropped back down to 1m2f.
I think that with sir percys speed and pace, i think he has all the attributes of a very good 1m2f horse, and wheras i dont rate his derby win, i definitely wont write him off, he has a better turn of foot than anything ive seen this season at a 1m2f and will certainly go any clip nthey set him.
I can understand how easy it is to slate him on the form of each race and his subsequent position as a well hyped derby winner (like all derby winners really), but on the merits of each run theres potential for a very good horse.
Your wrong sir harry, i bet on ouija board in the 2004 pretty polly (before her subsequent fame and fortune) and then in the breeders cup filly and mare. However, i am a realist and despite ouija boards overall acheivements, she is a consistant 123 horse, which is good for a filly (hence all the fillys races shes won) but she is not a great horse. I am sick of picking up the paper to read about people saying what ouija board is about to beat, people talk about her like she invincible. <br>Whenever she beat an under par david junior and electrocutionist at ascot i thought "oh god here we go again". <br>I think that most people with a brain know what ouija boards limits are, i couldnt beleive how many idiots were yakking that ouija board was going to route dylan thomas, (who subsequently beat her whilst not looking anywhere near 100%).
There only 3 (possibly 4) horses horses in training at the moment who i rate as being a bit special on what they are actually capable of. These are George Washington, Teofilo, Hurricane Run (possibly sir percy aswell, as im hoping he can be an exceptional 1m2f horse). If i pick up the paper and read a load of hype about tese horses i dont mind, because these horses are world beaters on their day. Oujia board may be a consistant 123 horse but she is not in the same bracket as these horses, although i get the impression that many would put her in there.
Bulwark on the otherhand is a horse who i have loved ever since he won me several bets including one at £1400 last year (which for me as a low stakes punter was quite good). Back then i never thought he had the potential which i now beleive he has.
Sgt cecil, IMHO is a more than competent 1m6f horse who can stay on in slowly run races over further and win because he has the best turn of foot. I see him as what he is and dont see him as being anything special. A quick look at all his efforts to date proves this as a true gallop always finds him out.
Bulwark is the younger horse than sgt cecil (and very highly strung), amanda perret threw bulwark in at the deep end in the goodwood cup, and knowing that he likes a fast gallop and his 40/1 price tag i thought id have a little go on him. Bulwark hung and threw away all chance of a place about a furlong out, but look at who he passes with ease before doing so, the bbc had it at a different angle than the one on the racing post site but in the last two furlongs bulwark and yeats were the two strongest travellers, he looked like getting 3rd place possibly 2nd if the incident hadnt occurred.
The racing post reckon, and i fully agree, that bulwark (with his ability to handle a fast gallop and his low current handicap rating) would be an ideal candidate for the melbourne cup (see lonsdale cup analysis on rp site).
At a true pace bulwark is a far stronger horse than sgt cecil (and still improving), the fact that Sgt cecil has had two group2s set up for him this year doesnt really alter that opinion.
So, is it that i dont rate sgt cecil, no. In slow paced staying races sgt cecil is a very good horses and i would think that with the french style of running he would be very well suited to the prix cadran, but if the prix cadran was run at a decent clip (in the absence of yeats), i can almost guarantee that bulwark would do him at a far bigger price. They may both feature in the same races but both are horses with very different skills, the way i see it, one set is paying off better than the other at present, but a fast clip will happen sooner or later and bulwark will have a nice price beside him when it does.<br>
empty wallet Posted on 4:59 am on Sep. 26, 2006
——————————————————————————–<br>Quote: from Bulwark on 4:48 am on Sep. 26, 2006<br>My messages arent working EW, what did EC get banned for?
Is it easy to get thrown off here? <br>.<br>——————————————————————————–
1, <br>Summat to do with Books for Christmas thread i believe
2,
Think yer get a couple of warnings before being banned
<br>i’ve not seen any get banned for strong opinions Bulwark, they’re welcomed here as long as they’re conducted while showing respect to the other members your debating with and no abuse takes place <br> <br>Just read that thread, can agree with everyone on there, and thnk its all got out of hand, however i am new and dont know of any previous history, but found EC to be a very interesting forum member. Have been following the discussion with grasshopper and yourself about nh timings and as someone who doesnt usually follow the nh it was an interesting debate.
My messages arent working EW, what did EC get banned for?
Is it easy to get thrown off here?
I find that many discussions see very strong opinions on here but its horse racing and strong views are part and parcel of any horse racing forum ive been on. Theres never any malice in it though.
Posted on 2:01 am on Sep. 26, 2006 <br>Well I’d like to think it’s the former, but more likely the latter…..
I just think it’s very sad when people bring ratings into messages of condolences, when people bicker over who ran to merit when you get great races like the Nassau and King George this year. Anybody that felt no sentiment or emotion when Ouija Board won the Nassau is simply not human as far as I’m concerned!
Heck I was crying! And still found time to start the ‘3 Cheers for Ouija Board!’ (yes folks, that was me who started that chant)
I am human and i was personally gutted when a 9/2 Alexander goldrun went down by a nose to an even money "nations favorite" ouija board in (wait for it) *THE NASSAU STAKES*, but was made up when a below par dylan thomas put her firmly in her place at leopardstown. Still, with plenty of spare phone credit and the absence of Popidol etc. the race watching sector of the nations muppetry voted the Nassau the highlight of the season on channel 4 recently, wasnt for me though…
But, i suppose if I dont love the much hyped and over publicised ouija board or Sgt Cecil (was jumping up and down when an 8/1 yeats routed him at ascot) then i probably dont love racing. Personally, I beleive that when a horse a horse gets a 3 or 4 big write ups and a 10 minute mini-documentary everytime they race, they’ll never be value for the task they are about to attempt.
I do not totally follow ratings and make most of my money in maidens, 2yo races etc. where there is more value available. But as a lover of great races i like to see a horse get a good honest rating which reflects their performance, eg if a horse wins an average QE2 in great style then i think he should get a great rating, if a horse wins a poor sussex or a poor derby then i think they should get a reflective rating as i hate picking up the racing post to see an overhyped horse splattered over the front page, but if they dont i can still capitalise in on the hype, and so its swings and roundabouts.
There are many factors which have an impact on a horse race and knowledge is power, so the more you take into consideration at the better prepped you will be, however, in group races it pays to give horses ratings thats how you know when they are out of their depth, like CM, Librettist and Proclamation on saturday, i have bet on librettist and Proclamation before but the fact that i had rated each horse told me that they werent likely to win, as there were two clearly better (and pretty consistant) horses in the field. And while those who dont care for ratings threw their money at the weaker horses all last week the better ones drifted.
Its these ratings that tell me that if george can run to form in the breeders cup mile that hes the cert of the competition.
We all have different ways of sorrting the weak from the tough for betting purposes, and i generally find that in debates and varying opinions on here you can think about things which you may have not already considered, and so to me it is not really sad to enter into discussion with people of different opinions on the merits of various top level horses.
I once followed the o’brien/coolmore operation quite solidly and i find that they breed almost everything (or buy everything) from very high up the northern dancer line). However, in the case of northern dancers (and mr prospectors) speed sires (storm cat/danzig/danehill/nureyev- very popular at coolmore), they are almost all very highly strung, quirky, aggressive horses and are bought for their raw ability, not their temperament.
A lot of these horses are so quirky that they dont even make it to the track, the ones that do are usually good however, if you get one with a good attitude they are usually group1 class, and in the case of horses like GW they are world beaters as his raw ability and aggressive nature transfer to the track as power and competetiveness.
The fact that some of these horses need pacesetters is just common sense really, you dont want to train the aggressiveness out of a horse who is probably better for being aggressive. It is a fullscale operation trying to get george to the start without him losing the rag, but what he can do when he gets there is worth the effort.
It is worth noting that pace makers do not always work, but they can be an effective tool for getting a horse to do what you want it to. I also agree with the concept of ponying a horse to the start if necessary.
All in all, I would rather see a great horse with an entourage than an average horse with none, pacemakers are mainly just used in big races anyway and you seldom see them in the weekday races.
GW was undoubtably the best 2yo last year, his phoenix romp was really quite exceptional and no other 2yo was able to muster anything else on that scale.
Also, he wasnt as well rated for his national stakes win but i had been following the 3rd horse heatseeker so i watched the race and george washington destroyed him, not only that but o’brien used a group winner (amigoni) as a pace setter and he set a blistering pace. I never understood what was wrong with that race other than the lack of the expected 8 length romp, which i didnt think would happen anyway.
