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<br>the official handicapper according to the rp has him as the 2nd best horse since 1986 to dancing brave and the best miler since 1984 to el gran senor
<br>flagship
just to settle the point in your post 11.39
you certainly have misinterpreted the tone of my post my opening was meant as a touch of light humour nothing more.
it may be unwise to call him the best ever but surely you will agree that there has not been many that are better. i cant recall a similar performence on turf since perhaps el gran senor in the 2000gns.
about repeating it he may or may not but surely it cannot be expected of any horse to put up a whole string of performences like this especially if they are going to keep him on the go until the breeders cup even brigadier gerard was more impressive in some races than others
<br> i for some reason presume your addressing me ??
have i rattled your cage or something or did misses uberalles refuse your advances last night
may i suggest you take a step back and reread my post as i was certainly not jumping down robbos or come to think of it anyone elses throats
i was merely pointing out some fo the flaws that i think are contained in his argument which from prior debates with robbo i feel sure he dosnt object to
and needless to say i agree with you it pushed the realms of possiblity that the whole field behind ran so far below their form.
oh by the way how many performnces like this will it take to satisfy you ?????
no matter what he does surely you are not going to take saturdays achievement away from him.
<br>robbo
aa are u suggesting that all the horses in the race ran some 12lb-20lb below their form one can be believed but all of them ????????????
bb he utilised his speed in the middle of the race and tired at the endwhat did you expect on his debut run to quicken in the middle of the race as he did and then to quicken again inside the final furlong
mick kinane rode a clever race i agree with you
darley said the ground was slippery as far as i am aware the ground was the same for hw
the 11 lenghts came about becuase wow was struggling im not sure as to your point as he certainly wouldnt have been beaten if he was tanking over hw ??? and i think so see a grp 1 winner struggling to lose by 11 lenghts is some pointer to the performence of the winner
a bit unfair to call a breeders cup mile winner a grp 2 horse but there again to beat a good grp2 horse by upwards of 19l is still some achievement.
the problem with this horse is he was unfairly crabbed last year and now people still want to pick holes
<br>i have never doubted hw cant see anything to beat him over 8-10f this year unless of course there is an unraced 3 yo potential superstar to be unleased hardly likely
if a poor year for sprinters he could win a july cup as well other milers such as royal acadamy and last tycoon have won 8f and 6f races at grp 1 level
it is very hard to compare rog to hw as the racing style was different im sure if mk had held on to him for a cheeky 1l win or came from behind for a narrow victory the headlines would be different even if the ease of victory was the same
i see terry mills wants a second attempt this year against hw i hope he changes his mind as another thrashing may sour his horse
<br> a truly awesome performence yesterday
this horse will be come a legend
<br> he will not be beaten over 8-10f on good or faster ground
alas as a side note i doubt if he will be on offer at 11/4 -2/1 sp again
john
barring using sites on the internet do u get the racing post weekender rachel pagones has a weekly coloumn which is quite interesting and she selects a different sire each week to which she gives a brief precis of their attributes
<br>sal
the juddmonte thing is not a one off (brian boru) but is now an ongoing agreement between coolmore and juddmonte
<br>oh one other thing sal
hasnt it always been a policy with breeders to have stamina on one side and speed on the other on the basis if both sides are laden with stamina one may end up with a plodder or a grand national winner (presuming of course the end result required is a flat horse)
sorry i meant overbrook not overbury
<br>sal
until recently storm cat was credited to overbury stud when did coolmore purchase him (a marvelous purchase if true) they do have shares in him i know but i have not seen or heard he has moved studs
montjeu was not bred buy coolmore but by his original owner upon his death tabor purchasing a half share from his the original owners french mistress whom had no interest in racing (strange to leave a person a racehorse knowing they had no interest in it)
whilst you are correct in that they buy mainly at sales then stand them at stud they have been more active recently in purchasing mares to breed from (eg mariahs storm) and they also now have a formal arrangment with judmonte stud (breeders of high chapperall) for mare sharing. as judmontes owner probably has the 2nd best collection of staying mares to the aga khan probably a good move.
as soon as he jumped the last  the crowd starting booing  as price was well known for his methods of laying out horses for handicaps
to make matters worse i believ he failed a drugs test  but the  medics proved that he had some sort of blood condition that produced a banned substance so he was allowed to keep the race    ÂÂÂ
 do u know the last derby winner to fail a drugs test but keep the race???????
my vote is with  mvob in the abscence of  douman being in the poll :biggrin: :biggrin:
(Edited by prince regent at 11:12 am on Feb. 7, 2003)
<br>grimes
accepting u may have a point about using home jockeys ie amercian jockeys in america etc and of course dettori is no doubt financially better of with sheik mos retainer than he would be being champion jockey or having a retainer with other yards
but then u strike first we have comparisins of douman with vob and to round the thread off douze douze with arkle:o :o
perhaps we could liken seebald with flyingbolt:o :o
<br>hi ian
sangster /magnier came after vob had won derbies with sir ivor etc grand nationals gold cups gloucest er hurdles arc king george& qe stakes etc not before
vob used succesful gambling to get himself off the ground
although his father did own a small farm it was not particulalry succesful and nor was he either a rich man or a member of the moneyed classes
i would be quite certain fd comes from a richer background
so i think its a bit oppotune to claim vobs success (or at least the initial success that made him a household name) was not due to his excellent skills but only due to the financial clout of his owners
and whilst i admit i dont know the backgrounds of the other trainers i wouldnt think they are/were in such a different financial league to douman at their relative start up dates
so i dont think douman is held back by finacial restraints
<br> so now we have discussed the financial side of their set ups
can u or anyone serioulsy say that douman in any shape or form be compared or even mentioned in the same breadth as vincent o brien
can u really say he compares with the rimmells/ f walwyns
i wouldnt compare him with the hendersons nicholls pipes of this world
hes a good trainer but not a top class one nor even an exceptional one just one of many good trainers
ian
re financial backing do u think doumans owners are poor are they just above the poverty line???
for your info the marchellea de rochelasta (admit my spelling of her name is appalling) is an extremely rich italian in addition to owning originally first gold and barracouda she amongst others owned hard to figure a french derby winner trained by carver and ridden bu piggot<br>and of course that is without mentioning her family owned the great ribot<br> so i doubt if lack of financial backing is one of his problems
not withstanding that your comments re easterby yes a valid point and of course i would accept that other trainers come into the argument as well as the ones i mentioned which i think only weakens the case that douman is a "great trainer"
robert99
i didnt say attention to detail is the only difference but just one part albeit a major part
i have other reasons for saying i dont think pipe is a great trainer as much as i respect his methods to some extent at least
douman may or may not be a great sportsman that is not what the subject was about and is a different topic (an interesting one possibly)
<br>ian<br>no tone intended just commenting on your comment earlier more careful in reading posts.
i was obviously referring to fulke not peter whomn as far as i can recall didnt have any presence of note over jumps
dont get me wrong i dont say douman is a bad trainer but he is not in the vob leauge nor in the rimmell/walwyn league either.
oh and as far as his record goes some of which makes good reading he does have a catologue of employing inept jockeys i recall the fool he put up on the fellow outridden i believ in one gold cup by a pitman now that must say it all
and as rossevelt used to say the buck stops here.
the difference between great very good and just good is often the amount of work that goes into the small detail such as employing a jockey more suitable to the way races in this country are run as after the fiasco at newbury with mr cool it was to a lot of people except the doumans quite clear as to the tactics that pipe/mccoy would be using.
pipe not a great trainer in my books but a man whom at least gets down to every fine detail in a race
and the worse horse won becuase of it
note the difference
<br>bear
your having a laugh surely there can be nothing so funny as someone thinking douman is as good as vob or in fact some of the other top trianers rimmell /walwyn.
ian
if u were more careful in reading posts u will note allthe trainers i mentioned started out and were very succsseful as jumps trainers.
<br>bear
your comment that douman is anywhere near as good as vob even 1/10 as good is so stupid that it dosnt need a reply
the record books will quite clearly show you the difference
gold cups champion hurdles derbies grand nationals…………………………………………..
hes not even as good as pipe henderson knight hobbs aob o grady rimmell walwyn i could go on………………. and none of them would have a fool like t douman riding for them either
