May 5, 2003 at 09:09 #102918johnjdonoghueMember
- Total Posts 994
They are fascists and bullies? Who are THEY exactly?May 5, 2003 at 11:42 #102920
I’m not anti any team in racing…..it’s far more varied than F1 and Godolphin/Ballydoyle is just not the same as ManU.
In fact I could hardly make any comparisons with ManU.
Fascists? People tend to over use that word and apply it to things completely unrelated.
Ballydoyle secured all the 2yo European Group Ones for colts in 2001. Not so last year and it may not be so this year. Racing is swings and roundabouts at the end of the day. 2000 Flat season was one of my favourites in recent years because there was a high mix of quality horses from all sorts of yards….variation. While I love variation it does not mean I’m anti Ballydoyle or Godolphin. I disagree with Godolphin’s buy-everything policy but they may have some flaws in their breeding programmes, let’s face it a lot of the Darley stallions are relatively young and new.
I’m all for smaller stables getting the big money from time to time but large corporations like the ones mentioned do actually put a lot into racing even though they may be in a sense "big business".May 5, 2003 at 11:44 #102922
PS – Good to see you back Aidan! 😎May 5, 2003 at 12:00 #102923
Difference BH is that was a mistake where as saying Coolmore breeds for speed is simply untrue. Your right Millenary is by Rainbow Quest, I should know that seeing as I worked with his dam(Ballerina) through the summer. Unraced Sadler’sWells out of her with Dunlop now(he is a 3 year old) and currently yearling is a Rainbow Quest filly. So yeah Millenary is by Rainbow Quest but I hope the bigger point is not lost on you.May 5, 2003 at 15:52 #102925AnonymousInactive
- Total Posts 5
Aiden<br>You’ve aquitted yourself well! You must see where I’m coming from though…May 6, 2003 at 07:12 #102927SeagullMember
- Total Posts 1708
From a punters point of view (and after all that’s what the majority of us are on here for) Saeed Bin Suroor and the horses he trains are better for punters than virtually anyone else. <br>By investing in every runner in this country for each of the last 6 seasons would have shown an overall level stake profitevery season. <br>A Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£100 on every runner at s.p. after all losers deducted shows an average level stake profit of over Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£6,000 a season. Last season again an exellent 24% strike rate and again an overall level stake profit. just 88 runners but 21 winners!May 6, 2003 at 07:16 #102929johnjdonoghueMember
- Total Posts 994
I’m sure we are all punters Seagull, but I do enjoy seeing the odd good horse.May 6, 2003 at 11:51 #102931
I’m not a punter – I’m a purist through and through :biggrin:May 6, 2003 at 12:17 #102932
Just to add as well that neither Milan, Golan nor Sinndar were bred by Coolmore Stud. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â And Storm Cat is at Ashford Stud, now rebranded as Coolmore America, so he does stand ‘at Coolmore’
Coolmore breed comparitively few foals themselves outright, more frequently using foal-share schemes – or buying as foals or yearlings by Coolmore stallions that will enhance their studs reputation.
I don’t think you can argue that Coolmore (home of Sadler’s Wells!) just produces speed horses. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â But, what is true is that many of their recent additions have followed a particular profile of being very American bred, best over 6 or 7 furlongs, successful 2yos and dominated by Northern Dancer and Mr Prospector lines – such as Monashee Mountain, Fasliyev, King Charlemagne, Mull of Kintyre, Orpen and Danehill Dancer (and I suppose their relatively recent purchase of Storm Cat).
The exceptions are mostly (apart from Galileo and Montjeu) the horses bought (or part-bought) after their racing careers from other owner-breeders, Spectrum, Grand Lodge, Golan, Peintre Celebre and Spinning World. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂMay 6, 2003 at 16:25 #102934
until recently storm cat was credited to overbury stud when did coolmore purchase him (a marvelous purchase if true) they do have shares in him i know but i have not seen or heard he has moved studs
montjeu was not bred buy coolmore but by his original owner upon his death tabor purchasing a half share from his the original owners french mistress whom had no interest in racing (strange to leave a person a racehorse knowing they had no interest in it)
whilst you are correct in that they buy mainly at sales then stand them at stud they have been more active recently in purchasing mares to breed from (eg mariahs storm) and they also now have a formal arrangment with judmonte stud (breeders of high chapperall) for mare sharing. as judmontes owner probably has the 2nd best collection of staying mares to the aga khan probably a good move.May 6, 2003 at 16:32 #102935
Again Storm Cat does NOT stand in Coolmore…..any part of Coolmore. John Magnier bought some breeding rights to the horse but he certainly doesnt stand in Coolmore. He actually stands in Overbrook farm. NOT ASHFORD. Indeed Milan,Golan nor Sinndar were not bred by Coolmore but were bred by Coolmore stallions.<br> They bred(themselves or in partnership) Galileo,Black Sam Belamy,Imagine,Turnberry Isle,Sligo Bay,Ballingary,Brian Boru(in a special deal with Juddmonte farms),Alberto Giacometti,Chevalier and Bach all of which were/are very decent performers beyond a mile I am sure you’ll agree. Coolmore have also purchased the dam of High Chaparral…..a serious stamina pedigree.May 6, 2003 at 16:56 #102936
<br>oh one other thing sal
hasnt it always been a policy with breeders to have stamina on one side and speed on the other on the basis if both sides are laden with stamina one may end up with a plodder or a grand national winner (presuming of course the end result required is a flat horse)
sorry i meant overbrook not overburyMay 6, 2003 at 17:06 #102938
:biggrin: Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â This is getting very complicated…
My initial post was making the distinction (which I personally feel is quite important, although you may not agree!) between the breeder of an animal and where the stallion stands. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â IMO the breeder (usually the owner of the mare) has made the mating selection and thus deserves the credit for a successful animal produced, rather than the stallion stud owner.
Aidan, you are correct (as I said in my post originally) that in one guise or another (usually Orpendale) Coolmore have bred many good mile+ horses – of course with Sadler’s Wells and his Classic offspring they have made a very important contribution to the breeding world. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â (incidentally has Chevalier been successful beyond a mile yet? did I miss it?).
But Sadler’s Wells and Danehill are both getting on a bit, and Montjeu/Galileo aside it seems to me that most of the new stallions that raced in Coolmore colours are milers at the very most and the bloodlines used are becoming very repetitive. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I wonder, after Sadler’s Wells’ (hopefully long and happy) retirement where they will breed their middle-distance winners from?
(Aside, pr – the Juddmonte thing was Brian Boru, High Chaparral was bred by Sean Coughlan)<br>(Aside no.2 Storm Cat – oops, wasn’t meant to say that :biggrin: Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â )May 6, 2003 at 17:11 #102939
the juddmonte thing is not a one off (brian boru) but is now an ongoing agreement between coolmore and juddmonteMay 6, 2003 at 17:19 #102941
Sorry pr – overlap!!
Breeding a stamina laden mare to a speedy stallion or vice-versa most usually produces something that only stays six furlongs but very slowly!
The idea is to find a stallion that complements your mare’s genetic make-up and will hopefully add the ingredients that the mare lacks to create your perfect racehorse (whether you want a sprinter/classic winner/grand national winner/whatever). Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â The most important thing the stallion usually brings is class.
If you have a staying mare with staying genes then you would need to send her to a sprinter or miler with VERY dominent genes to ‘balance’ it out. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Sadler’s Wells is a good example of a stallion that stamps his stock, they are more likely to take his characteristics than the mare’s.
But the important thing is choice – to have a range of stallions with a decent spread on the gene pool and a wide range of attributes to cater for all the types of racehorses that we want to see racing in Europe. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Our racing is so much more varied than 8f lefthanded round a dirt track and the thoroughbreds born here reflect that – and need to carry on reflecting that. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â It’s no use have all these wonderful mares with vastly different bloodlines if we then send them all to carbon-copy Danzig line, American bred, 7f specialist stallions – because in five generations time we will have destroyed the breed.
<br>(kill this juddmonte thing already – I didn’t say it wasn’t!! just that it didn’t involve High Chaparral)May 6, 2003 at 17:24 #102942
I would have thought Brian Boru and High Chaparral would be another two stallions to fill the role(or at least attempt) let behind by Sadler’s Wells? Thought that was a bit obvious. Then throw in Galileo,Montjeu and Peintre Celebre and I would think it would be hard to say Coolmore only cater for speed?<br> I understand the difference between owning the mare and just using another persons stallion but what Zoz said was if Coolmore only breed for speed which I think I have proved is completely untrue. As for Coolmore/Juddmonte that is an on going thing. I realise High Chaparral was bred by Couglan dont think I said otherwise…..Magnier has since bought Kasora(his dam) off Coughlan.May 6, 2003 at 18:32 #102945
High Chaparral will hopefully make a lovely stallion. Brian Boru has an interesting pedigree on his dam’s side, although you have to go back a long way before you’d say it was stallion’s pedigree (pretty good when you get there though, related to Great Nephew and Nearctic!). Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Brian Boru does also have to prove himself a fair bit more on the racecourse.
But Peintre Celebre aside (he is not from Coolmore stock) – all the ones you have mentioned are by Sadler’s Wells himself. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Having a surfeit of carbon-copy Derby winning Sadler’s Wells’ would be equally as unhelpful as having only Danzig sons or Danehill sons. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
Additionally, Sadler’s Wells has provided so far a little disappointing as a sire of sires – given the number of sons he has sent to stud. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â In The Wings (stood by Darley) is probably his most successful son to date – from relatively small foal crops. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â El Prado has been surprisingly successful in America. Barathea would mostly be described (maybe unfairly) as disappointing. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Then you’re into the ‘champion sires abroad’ category of Opera House (Japan), Fort Wood (South Africa) and the young NH/dual purpose sires Kayf Tara and Saddlers’ Hall.
It doesn’t do the breed any good to have a category (ie middle distance) dominated by one bloodline. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â It is great that Coolmore also stand middle-distance lines such as Grand Lodge, Golan and Peintre Celebre, but they do seem to buy in the variety rather than breed (and race) it.
Incidentally Aidan if it makes you feel better, I also have criticisms of the Darley/Godolphin breeding programme – but I do think they are alot more adventurous which the range of stallions that they stand.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.