The home of intelligent horse racing discussion
The home of intelligent horse racing discussion

What a difference

Home Forums Archive Topics What a difference

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #4312
    Meshaheer
    Member
    • Total Posts 486

    The thought of Ballydoyle/Godolphin mopping up our first classics just sounded dreadful, even for a Godolphin gunner like me.

    I’m so pleased to see the results of the two Guineas….it seems the two racing superpowers need to magic something out of the hat in this early part of the season to keep tabs with the others. No doubt they will, we have Hawk Wing and High Chaparral to come, as well as Sulamani and Moon Ballad, but they are older horses anyway.

    Is the tide turning? I hope this season has started as it means to go on. More competition means more mouthwatering racing.

    (Edited by Meshaheer at 5:33 pm on May 4, 2003)

    #102891
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    I went to visit a friend the other day and was talking to her dad about his thoughts on racing.

    He said that he much preferred NH because of the people – he’s one of many who I’ve heard say that the monopoly of top races is a VERY bad thing.

    I don’t like to wish ill for anyone as it’s just not sporting, whilst they may p**s<br> me off a bit I don’t object to them winning unless they truly are scum, but I can’t help but feel relieved that Ballydoyle’s three year olds seem mediocre.

    Two seasons ago would you have foreseen there being Where or When, Soviety Song, Russian Rhythm, Six Perfections, Domedriver, Intercontinetal, Bollin Eric, Refuse to Bend, Continent and those in between such as Kyllachy and Gossamer, not to mention others, who can put up a fight in the top races? I didn’t, I regret to say that I really thought this "Premier League" trend would continue whilst everyone else was Div 1 or 2 in comparison.

    If it had gone the other way and we were still subjected to a boring flood of blue-silked, blue-blooded horses winning everything worth having, I probably wouldn’t have bothered even watching the Guineas, but thankfully it looks like the smaller owner or breeder hasn’t kicked the bucket just yet.

    (Edited by Zoz at 5:42 pm on May 4, 2003)

    #102892
    BenMore
    Member
    • Total Posts 32

    Even with all the money available it is impossible to buy the derby winner every year.( I mean before the race) But I would not write off Brian Boru just yet!

    #102893
    johnjdonoghue
    Member
    • Total Posts 994

    I really don’t understand how you guys are always nipping away at Ballydoyle and Godolphin. I do understand how you champion when the little trainers do well and that is quite alright. However Ballydoyle/Godolphin have every right to be successful at their "business", the people who own/train/work for these stables have the same passion for racing as you and I.

    Zoz, you feel relieved that Ballydoyle’s 3 year olds are not up to it this year, so do they border on the edge of Scum? Please clarify what you mean by this, because I don’t understand this comment.

    As for your friend’s dad who enjoys NH racing, I’ hope that this not apply to Martin Pipe’s domination of NH throughout the last number of years.

    #102895
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    Right, you want clarified, here you go.

    I did not mean that at all, I merely meant that, with Ballydoyle’s team not at its all powerful best that it was two seasons ago, hopefully we’ll have a more level playing field. Other people will have a chance.

    I do not begrudge them doing well at their business and I don’t begrudge them winning, I just fear that the Ballydoyle/Godolphin powerhouses will end up with the most valuable horses, encourage speed horses and – as many bloodstock and breeding studies will show you – proceed to use these horses to overbreed carbon copies of horses that eight times out of ten wouldn’t get the St leger trip in a horsebox.

    This sport is all about, after all, people owning a horse and competing against each other. I’m all for enterprising business sense but not at the expense of competitive, open racing.

    #102897
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    Oh, and can I add to that, seeing the same people saying the same things in the winners enclosure of big races just bores the hell out of me.

    Sorry, it just does. :biggrin:

    #102898
    johnjdonoghue
    Member
    • Total Posts 994

    Zoz,

    another that strikes me about your initial post: –

    Two seasons ago would you have foreseen there being Where or When, Soviety Song, Russian Rhythm, Six Perfections, Domedriver, Intercontinetal, Bollin Eric, Refuse to Bend, Continent and those in between such as Kyllachy and Gossamer, not to mention others, who can put up a fight in the top races?

    If you take the following horses/trainers/owners from the above quote: –

    Russian Rhythm Michael Stoute/Cheverly Park Stud. <br>Domedriver & Sixperfections Paschal Barry/Niarchos Family<br>Intercontinental  Andre Fabre/Kahlad Abdulla<br>Refuse to Bend  Derot Weld/Moyglare Stud

    Now do I understand you correctly, that the above listed are in some way minnows of horse racing? That Cheverly Park, Moyglare stud, Kahlad Abdula and the Niarchos family are not in the so called "Premier League" of  racing. I can understand in the case of Soviet Song and Tout Seul being in the lower league bracket, but to suggest that the others are IMO is quite wrong.

    So possibly Ballydoyle and Godolphin do spend a lot of dosh on the animals they buy, possibly more than any other outfit, but in honesty I don’t think John Magnier owned a shipping magnet before he was involved in racing. By the way russian Rhythm cost 440,000gns, possibly not the $2,500,000 that Tomahawk cost, but it is still a lot of money in anyones terms.

    Did you think Hawk Wing against Grandera’s battle was boring? Fantastic Light Vs Galileo? Doubt it very much!

    By the way what odds do you give me that Six Perfections will be added to Godolphins outfit for next season?

    (Edited by johnjdonoghue at 9:36 pm on May 4, 2003)

    #102899
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    Find it interesting people dont have this feeling when Pipe or Henderson win AGAIN at Cheltenham. Zoz you mention horses wont get the Leger trip:<br>"proceed to use these horses to overbreed carbon copies of horses that eight times out of ten wouldn’t get the St leger trip in a horsebox" emmmmm…….I would suggest you look at the pedigrees of recent distance races before you spout untruths. Milan and Millenary two recent winners by Coolmore stallions and take a look at Coolmore’s produce over 1m4f furlongs recently High Chaparral,Golan,Brian Boru,Sinndar, etc etc Whats the odds a Coolmore bred colt/filly doesnt start favourite for the Leger? For this years Derby 2 out of the top 3 in the betting are by Sadler’s Wells.<br>               I for one would like to see the better bred colts with better conformation etc going to stud and passing on their quality gene. But maybe you prefer the poor breeding with poor conformation to pass on their genes just so its not boring?!?<br>                    As for the general state of the Ballydoyle/Godolphin three year olds…….much too early to be ruling them out yet. The French Guineas is next week and especially for the Coolmore horses judgement can only be passed after the Irish Guineas meeting.<br>

    #102900
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    Sorry John but I am allowed an opinion. The Coolmore attitude to turning a sport into a business has been overpowering before, and owners breeders are, ask Henry Cecil, starting to show thin on the ground.

    You have to admit that Cheveley Park and the Niarchos team have been putting in less of a show than they used to over past years.

    PERSONALLY, I think that it’s great that they are now fielding decent horses.

    Godolphin, I have always said, should be given a sound slap on the back for keeping older improving horses in training. Hopefully if Ballydoyle maintain their new impetus in this direction then we’ll be on to something.

    What are your thoughts towards the countless Storm Cats, Danehills and Sadlers Wells that we see running these days? How about your thoughts on the threat of overbreeding?  

    The fact remains that variety really is the spice of life, and I enjoy having more than two big "teams" in the sport.

    #102903
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    Further to that yes I do enjoy great horses racing each other ie Galileo vs Fantastic Light. I’m all for the breeding of top quality horses, of course!

    As for SP joining Godolphin, I doubt it although I could be wrong – the Niarchos family will surely want to breed from her.

    Would you not like to see less of the "that horse is better than ours, let’s buy it" mentality, or the "that’s a flashy American speed horse, we’ll take that" approach?

    This isn’t a completely anti-Godolphin/Coolmore rant. I would just like to see more people challenging for a race. I would like to see more than just blue-silked horses in the ante-post markets.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion and personally I would like to see more contenders for the flat. Nicky Henderson and Martin Pipe I think pale in comparison in terms of big races.  

    #102904
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    "The Coolmore attitude to turning a sport into a business has been overpowering before, and owners breeders are, ask Henry Cecil, starting to show thin on the ground"<br>I love HC as much as anyone but sorry if you cant cut the mustard its tough! Look at Dermot Weld…..stuck in Ireland with Ballydoyle and Oxx etc but he is not going down hill. Far from it!! Look at Stoute,Hills and Johnston. Still all flourishing yet you chose to single out Henry Cecil?<br>     My thoughts on the countless Danehills,Sadler’s Wells and Storm Cats(does not actually stand in Coolmore)……….well the likes of High Chaparral,Rock Of Gibraltar,Gossamer,Giant’s Causeway,Galileo etc make me feel pretty damn good about them. Your worries on inbreeding while justified is not that serious(in my opinion). Yes it is becoming more common but I personally think it has reached as far as it is going to go as breeders wont risk it much further. Other than that as long as it is quality stock I have no problem with breeding in a relatively small band of horses. Diluting it too much would damage the thoroughbred as much as inbreeding.

    #102906
    zome
    Member
    • Total Posts 232

    godolphinballydoylecoolmore .Ltd.  Lovely.  Another coorporation for the world, happily snuggled amongst a sport it is going to take over leaving small yards with no winners…which means no money…which means the sport will dry up.  Losers.

    #102907
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    Zome come over to Ireland and I will show you the effect Ballydoyle has had on racing over here……racing is more professional and with much greater expertise. Ballydoyle has raised the bar and rightly so. Those that are good will stay up those that are not good enough rightly fall by the way side. Irish racing is in its best condition for many a year…..just look at the results.

    #102910
    zome
    Member
    • Total Posts 232

    Of course it’s had a good impact.  They always do at first.  Then the public gets sucked in to thinking that these big companies are doing a good thing for racing.  They mean no harm, but they cause plenty at the end of the day.  There may not be any hard impact as of yet, but at the end of the day…the one’s with the most money win, and it’s gonna get boring.  Look at formula one…….dominated by a couple of teams.  Wheres the fun?  Wheres the sport?

    #102913
    Zoz
    Member
    • Total Posts 703

    Girl has a point.

    Two years ago, it was Ferrari Mclaren, the rest may as well have stayed in a pub. If the points hadn’t gone to eighth then they would have.

    This year formula one has williams and renault to think about, and even jordan has had a win.

    I think this racing season will have more teams just like F1, and how is that POSSIBLY a bad thing?

    Or do you like Ferrrari/McLaren monopolies?

    Ferrari will win the championships, because they’re the best. The best competitor will win.

    Fundamentally my initial reply to this post was that I think there is no loser when there is more than two big teams playing this sport. It can only benefit the public, the people in question, the breeding industry, the public perception of flat racing. Over breeding, inbreeding, et al is all another argument to what I was first trying to say.

    So what’s the problem with more than two teams?

    (Edited by Zoz at 10:41 pm on May 4, 2003)

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.