May 6, 2003 at 21:54 #102946AnonymousInactive
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Sal,<br>You seem to know your stuff! My knowlage of the breeding side of things is still relatively raw and I’d like to improve it. I was wondering what books (or anything else) you’d recomend. I’ve read the tesio book, and the Northern Dancer bio and am a subscriber to Pacemaker. Any suggestions?<br>Cheers<br>BenMay 7, 2003 at 08:33 #102947AidanMember
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I think the very fact that Coolmore has bought in the likes of Peintre Celebre,Golan and Grand Lodge says that they simply do not want to flood the market with American sprinters. Far from it.<br>"It’s no use have all these wonderful mares with vastly different bloodlines if we then send them all to carbon-copy Danzig line, American bred, 7f specialist stallions – because in five generations time we will have destroyed the breed"<br>In fact Coolmore actually only have 3 Danzig stallions standing in their Irish operation. Personally think King Charlmagne could be a very good future sire for Coolmore. As for the Darley out fit, I think the reason their stallions are so ranging is because they buy the best race horses in some cases regardless of pedigree while Coolmore buy the best racehorses as long as they have a stallions pedigree. <br> Think we are going off the point somewhat anyway Sal……arguement was that Coolmore simply bred for speed,yeah course it is part of it but I think I have shown(and you yourself) that that simply aint true. The Derby is the number one race for Coolmore/Ballydoyle every year still.<br>May 7, 2003 at 09:25 #102950SalMember
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Aidan, Coolmore Ireland actually has seven Danzig-line stallions. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Danehill, Monashee Mountain and Mull of Kintyre by Danzig himself; Danehill Dancer and Rock of Gibralter by Danehill; Orpen by Lure (son of Danzig); and Grand Lodge by Chief’s Crown (son of Danzig). Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
They then have four Nureyevs (Fasliyev, King Charlemagne, Spinning World and Peintre Celebre) and the two old boys by Northern Dancer. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Of the remaining seven, all bar two (Spectrum and Golan) are also grandsons of Northern Dancer.
Most of them are fantastic stallions, but Coolmore do seem to work to a template.May 7, 2003 at 13:13 #102951
Aidan – you may think you have proved your point but I still stand by what I say.
My actual words were "wouldn’t get the St Leger trip in a horsebox eight times out of ten" – admittedly this statistic might have been changed if more of the horses in question either stayed in training or actually raced over that trip to prove me wrong.
I enjoy the variety of trips and tests of British racing and I don’t think that the influx of Rock of Gibraltars, Hawk Wings et al will benefit such races in the public eye.
Group One staying races will, at this rate, be either scrapped completely (the St Leger is already dismissed as Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Triple Crown race by the BHB and co) or just be the only way for smaller owners to get a win or place in a Group One.
I’m not saying your arguments are not without merit because they are and if that’s your opinion then great! carry on!. However, I have my opinion and I am not going to change my mind no matter how many posts are put on here in a different frame of mind. It is not about "proving" anything.
You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I do.
Also – and I’m not saying this to stir an argument or belittle what you’re saying – I feel that a few of my comments have been taken out of the context in which they were meant.
My real bugbear with domineering teams in racing is that I like variety – variety of races, horses, breeding and people. I can’t see how that can possibly be a bad thing.
I was not suggesting that they were all in league with the devil, the scourge of the earth or anything of the like! :laugh:
(Edited by Zoz at 2:16 pm on May 7, 2003)May 7, 2003 at 13:27 #102952
I’d also like to ask, John, regarding your initial statement that "they have a right to be successful at their business" (which I don’t deny), I presume you’ve read Sal’s thoughts and you have to admit that they are comprehensive and pretty solid.
Whilst it is all very well to be breeding mostly from staple bloodlines and making a success of it, do you think that the after effects of very powerful breeding operations doing that, that we will see in twenty or thirty years, will be worth it?
I think in terms of the long term big picture, people may have to look back and realise that, whilst at the time it was good to see a well-bred Sadler’s Wells colt from Ballydoyle head the Derby ante-post market each year, the ramifications on breeding will not be so enjoyable.
And with that much money at one end of the market, how can smaller breeders be expected to continue breeding other bloodlines to keep up the equilibrium, only to sell at a loss because their horses aren’t fashionably bred enoguh to warrant bids from…yep…you’ve guessed it, those with the money. Coolmore and Godolphin.
I do agree with you Sal that Godolphin are braver with their choice of stallions, and all I can say is thank God for that.May 7, 2003 at 13:37 #102953johnjdonoghueMember
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Unfortunately my knowledge of breeding would not be on par with yours, Sals or Aidans. Could you suggest a book that would be able to bring me up to speed?
My opinions are based on the Ballydoyle operation, I am great admirer of Aidan O’Brien and the connections that run this yard. They have raised the profile and the game of Irish racing.May 7, 2003 at 13:50 #102954SalMember
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I never really know what to say when someone asks for a breeding ‘textbook’ – don’t really know of one (as much of it is opinion and preference anyway).
Tony Morris is very good, as is Pacemaker – otherwise sales catalogues and things like The Stallion Book are very helpful for more historical stuff. The Pedigree Post website used to be very interesting (if sometimes a bit esoteric), but I think its no longer maintained. Making notes of the breeding of current group winners might help, and at least makes learning about pedigrees relevant.
Sorry not to be more help!May 7, 2003 at 13:51 #102955
You have a point, they have raised the game – I just hope with time that enough people can keepup with them financially!
As to books, I can’t think of a single name of one that I’ve read! For up-to-date bloodstock analysis I’ve always used Pacemaker magazine (not sure if their level of quality will continue as they’ve just been taken over by Dunwoody Sports Marketing and have a new editor – time will tell of course!), surfed the net, http://www.bloodhorse.com are good on the breeding side, and of course the Racing Post’s bloodstock writers Tony Morris and Rachel Pagones (I think that’s the right name!) are very good at their job.
Hope that helps! Sal’ll doubtless be able to point you and me both in the direction of good books on the subject!May 7, 2003 at 16:45 #102956prince regentMember
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barring using sites on the internet do u get the racing post weekender rachel pagones has a weekly coloumn which is quite interesting and she selects a different sire each week to which she gives a brief precis of their attributesMay 7, 2003 at 19:38 #102957AidanMember
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back to the current Coolmore stars….Word is Brian Boru goes to Leopardstown probably along with The Great Gatsby with Alberto Giacometti going for the Lupin. Kinane will go to France for the Guineas with Heffernan on Brian Boru.I will be eagarly looking forward to seeing Catcher In The Rye out soon.
(Edited by Aidan at 8:42 pm on May 7, 2003)May 7, 2003 at 20:45 #102958johnjdonoghueMember
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Zoz, Prince Regent and Sal,
Thanks very much for your advice re breeding, hopefully I may someday have the knowledge of you guys!
John.May 7, 2003 at 20:49 #102959
Take it from me, mate, once you learn a load of bloodlines, unless you’re very lucky your local pub going lot probably won’t care.
It’s a tough life, this racing enthusiasm :laugh:May 13, 2003 at 22:02 #102960zomeMember
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BAaaaaa baaaaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaa<br>follow the shepards all the way to the slaughter house.<br>Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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