Forum Replies Created
- Posts
margarsons stable were unlucky not to win a group 1 with barathea guest a couple of years back when disqulified in france. Ciro won it in the stewards for o brien. Any trainer frightened by the number of entries that o brien puts into his races isnt doing his job properly. The horse should be entered to a race on merits. Trainers should not be searching for the group race that O brien forgot. This is a pretty lame arguement. The fact is that o brien has so many two year olds – especially easry season 2yo – that they are often kept from their racecourse debuts because its a stablemates turn to run.
BB was unlucky to come up against baracouda. he would ahve been a worthy stayers winner in any other generation that i can remember. Bannow bay will get the respect he desrves from all includeing the doubters as he has been seen to be a classy animal on british soil and not the victor of tin pot races in ireland. There isnt a whole pile between BB and baracouda. Good ground or better would hold any fears for BB.
Agree with escorial re limestone lad. probably not as good as over 20 furlongs – his free front running style is tough to keep up over the longer distance. He needs a slightly more restrained ride over 3 miles which doesnt play to his strengths. that said his presence was missed in the stayers, the two principles wouldnt have been playing cat and mouse with charlie not waiting for a lead off the bend.
personally, i was away for a week, (thank you freetown) coming back to this site and i am saddened that this thread has amounted the greatest number of posts that i can remember on here. I think it is a poor reflection of the forumites in general.
And before ye start talking all the bullshit on every one id entitled to their opinion…. i dont mean to offend anyone but that is my opinion and im not apologizing for it.
i am disappointed that the scaremongering re istabraq were proved correct to a great extent but this thread , which i am aware that i am adding to, is a disgrace.
100,000 at 8/1 on a monday , 8/1 on tuesday. This is ridulous. Sorry , i dont think i can convey my disappointment in forumites in arguing this.
Jumping in these islands would be in a lot worse of a position without supporters like JP mcmanus. It is insulting what is suggested on this forum. Free speech etc , things that are a given on here. I think it is the most idiotic idea here to suggest that JP carried the horse over ot get the 8/1 for him not to finish, from people who should know better.
<br>
i dont think istabraq was ever trained for the race especially this year. I think they brough him to the boil without stress testing him. That he gave way when the heat was on is no disgrace. i dont think he was unfit , but probably untested this year. The connections owed it ot the horse to run him. He hasnt let them down. Its easier to go to bed regretting something you did rather than something you didnt. He could have been withdrawn and charlie could have been hanged. he gave teh horse a chance. I dont mind this speculation, i dont liek the suggestion that this was theatre, that this was planned, that seems to be what you are suggesting with your premonition quote re aidan o brien. That is insulting and idiotic.
on the subject that there was betting available on where the horse would finish or otherwise. It is insulting to JP and to the stable staff who look after hte horse to suggest that he was run there to gain advantage of this promotion. 100, 000 went on LAB in teh supreme novices, how much would you get on in that bet. 500 max if that.
As i said i dont mind debating istabraq and his run/non run but this kind of speculation is simply nonsense. This is a horse that will be mention with Arkle, Dawn Run over here, you think that the connection would want that hanging over them…
if you think that 8/1 was a big price then why wasnt it snapped up by those poor stable hands. They had betting for where he would finish, there was betting that he would fall also. Id hate to say this but followng istabraq doesnt make you rich. The biggest gambe the connections had regarding the horse was Theatreword finishing second in his second champion. listen closely to the footage on AOB as theatreworld gets up.
I cant believe this is seriously being considered. Liek most people here, we were hoping that he could do it. It did happen Escorial, no doubts about that. What i find ridiculous is the suggestion that he was brought to cheltenham to run teh first two furlongs. i would think that AOB would know when his horses action was wrong and guessed that he would be pulled up, that he and charlie has instructions that were obviously not being followed signifying that he knew the horse had gone wrong. None of these i can prove but they are more plauisble than the suggestion that it was planned that he would pass teh stands and then pull up. How many parades will be pass the stands in at cheltenham? Its unformatuante that we wonlt have any other threads on either istabraq or valiramix but it is equally unfortunate that his conspiracy theory is being entertained by some regarding some of teh most sproting owners in these islands. JP wouldnt comment on the horse, just saying that he is OK , but the day belonged to HLL.
To be honest, i dont think that Istabraq was trained for teh race, in that he was given the same gentle kidding along for the year. I can remember years ago , o brien saying that he never schools the horse. He was brought to the day with kid gloves, not wanting to bottom the horse. They hoped that his ability would see him through. They fittest horse in teh race can get injutred or worse.
not getting defensive here, but doesnt charlie swans explanation, that he lost his action after jumping the first, went up the hill hoping that he would return to full working order, and as he didnt, He pulled him up fulfill all your questions. I dont see how this doesnt answer them. Charlie gave the horse the chance to correct himself if possible.
The connections gambled, went to the well once too often. ( He wasnt pulled up after two flights at leopardstown.) I think it is ridiculous to suggest that he went there for the theatre. He went there to try to create history. the connections were wrong. But i think it is disusting to think that the connections would run an unsound horse. If he was knowingly unsound why all teh clammer when Ned Kelly was " surprisingly" withdrawn.
Damned with sinister plot hatching if you pull a horse out, and damned with sinister plot hatching if you leave them in. Maybe the problem is the over cynical commentator.
keith,
I think teh point that you may or may not be missing is that most of us fomumites realise teh dangers of racing. We have come to terms with teh fact that horses die on course. Something that we dont like but realise that national hunt horses these days are bred for sport. What option do they have? 3m flat races – rouble and valiramix both fell on the flat. Noone likes seeing a horse die, but it has to be faced with a touch of resignment when it happens. That these fatalites are highlighted at cheltenham ( where the races are run that bit quicker ) is only natural. More people were upset at McCoys tantrum at not catching teh horse than the fact that he fell from a betting point of view. The attitude is not hypcritical.
There is alight year between that attitude and joking about a horse breaking both its forelegs, or at least using it to hammer home an idiotic point. I think you may view it as a gamblers sport. I dont gamble on anything else other than horse racing and i would enjoy it all the same if betting was taken out of it.
yes, istabraq turned up for the appearance money. That suggestion definitely tops the lot.
I think that they knew the horse wasnt himself but hoped that he could have got one more run out of him, the adrenalin and whatever. He travelled fine at leopardstown, but not at the gallop set at cheltenham.
for me, i relaly wanted to give up all interest in racing after cardinal hill and joe mac were put to sleep within a month of each other a couple of years ago. But i love racing, gambling is an attractive side of it. But it was watching the races when i was younger that i got into the sport , not as an opportunity to make money. Yes, horses do die, and it is the unfortunate egg shells that go towards making teh omlette. If istabraq had won yesterday, i wouldnt have been able to calm myself for the week.
For all his victories, M pipe has sadly lost a good few good horses at the festival. Although istbraq will now surely be retired, it is valiramix that i feel sorry for. He was looking bloody good.
i have said previously that lescargot must be the most underrated horse ever but that is irrelevent. ( fifth in a champion hurdle also.
Rob, I know why gold cup winners dont often repeat teh trick. It does take a lot of winning. If it was reduced by 2 and half furlongs the stats would change but it is a tough test. The horse doesnt know the stats. I dont dismiss the stats, weight ranges in the grand national one example
Just on the five year old thing… le coudray came very close to winning a stayers. If the stayers had JDC against selers would JDc be dismissed because he was 5. i recognise teh use of stats – it wouldnt be stayers if it was just contested by five year olds and sellers – just using an example to try to show that …….
its the formbook stupid:biggrin:
I would think that the form book and not trends would stop the horse. I think LLT has every chance in a very open year. Some stats are useful some are not, but it is the form book that present the most reliable avenue for dismissing and selecting horses.
The thing that pisses me off about stats buffs is that if LLT was 20 lengths clear at the last and ran out because of a bridle breaking, the statistican would say that it was further evidence of why no horse can retain a gold cup and use that fact to bolster future arguments.
On record tied cottage – not just because he was irish, just the one that springs to mind – didnt win a gold cup, but he was the moral victor of two. stats dont tell everything , some are more useful than others i suppose.
can looks like trouble retain a gold cup? Only two horses in the past fifty years have done it. No horse in the past thrity years. will this stop the horse?
agree with most of what you said, but what many find insulting and what is more than a little patronising, which to be honest i dont think you mean, is that we irish cant see the difference between a string of 1’s in front of a horse and genuinely good form. As a nation we are not that stupid. There is a hype ffactor beside some horses. horses like Danoli, Imperial call, Limestone lad, Istabraq get cult following. Danoli won a hennessey from Jodami and Imperial call ,a sun alliance hurdle, two aintree hurdles.
Best mate on the other hand was beaten by irish horses in both its two biggest races.
On sackville, at the beginning of the year deserved to be fav for the gold cup, he is indifferent to ground, won on teh course, truly stays, progressive. He has Lord noelie beaten in my opinion. Now, that he has lost his form to the extent that he has done is something that couldnt have been predicted. Maybe they went too often with him last year, but he is not the same horse that won teh CH, no matter how much his present form seems to bolster some lopsided arguements against the horse.
I think you might agree with me on this one that the two grade one races won by rodock and tresor de mai lately were the worst seen in a long time. tin pot races if i ever saw them. Even golden goal.
then again Vintage crop became british after winning the melbourne cup. Johannesburg, Giants causeway etc was british when running the breeders cup. I think the slagging off of irish racing – tin pot races – and teh labellig of horse over hyped is equally as bad as the defence put up by irish contributors to this forum.
Ireland is the home of teh national hunt horse. Irish breds are still the most robust horses and the most dependable long term. France very fashionable for young horses admittedly. Some of teh irish contributors lived therough teh eighties where there were no winners at cheltenham festivals, where any horse placed in a bumper was bought by N henderson or D nicholson. Imperial call was probably the turnabout, offered huge money, lissellan farms turned down all attempts before teh gold cup. This period made irish supporters aware of teh good horses that they have., and maybe a bit more patriotic.
not like ye english types to get carried away re best mate " no really, he his the next arkle" after ebating fadalko and desert mountain at exeter. Barton – "best horse ever seen" Peter Easterby who tained Night nurse, sea pigoen and must have seen arkle.
Unfortunately there are no staying hurdlers in england at teh moment that can test baracouda. Those he hasnt faced has lots of prove over 3m (brother joe). Until he beats liss a paorigh, limestone lad, or Bannow bay whose defeat of limestone lad at christmas is the best piece of staying hurdle form this year, baracouda has something to prove. I think Baracouda will win the stayers but he hasnt beaten anything of note just yet.
