March 13, 2002 at 11:20 #4164Merlin the MagicianMember
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KATHY yes quite possible I would go along with that theory actually ominus just prior to race big MAC saying PADDY POWER offering 8-1 about him not finishing (I was considering making a further call to my TOTE account and having a fiver on it but did not in the end).
I had read somewhere recently that ALL participants at the festival were going to be paid appearence money but stand corrected if it was not the festival but it was definetly CHELTS.<br>Regards MERLINMarch 13, 2002 at 11:29 #98614
yes, istabraq turned up for the appearance money. That suggestion definitely tops the lot.
I think that they knew the horse wasnt himself but hoped that he could have got one more run out of him, the adrenalin and whatever. He travelled fine at leopardstown, but not at the gallop set at cheltenham.March 13, 2002 at 12:05 #98615Gearoid VIMember
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Razeen tickets for the Gold Cup were sold out by Christmass. The tickets for the Champion Hurdle were avaliable up to a month ago. I for one feel cheated by how I lost my money. I still love the horse but that was not what I wanted to see yesterday……………..March 13, 2002 at 12:20 #98616roryParticipant
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The notion that Aidan O’Brien and J P McManus would run any horse (let alone Istabraq) which they knew to be unsound is patently ridiculous. Shame on anyone who could harbour such a thought.March 13, 2002 at 12:24 #98617Gearoid VIMember
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If anyone saw the expression on Charlie Swan’s face after the race it was clear to the world he was gutted.March 13, 2002 at 19:59 #98618ALIMember
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Istabraq turned up yesterday to win, full stop. I cannot imagine JP or Aidan or Swan all agreeing on some sort of conspiracy theory. This horse means the world to them, and they know he means the world to racing fans all around Britian and Ireland. There has been many romours surrounding Istabraq throughout his career but this one tops the lot, in my opinion. No offence meant though, we are all entitled to our views. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂMarch 13, 2002 at 20:14 #98619Jim JTSMember
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I think rory and ALI are close to the mark here , IMO Isty turned up to take his chance and it was just a coincidence what followed, if Charlie Swan felt he wasn’t moving well to post he’d have mentioned this and Isty would’ve been withdrawn surely? therefor he lined up and took his chance but it was only after he jumped the first that the injury happened, Swan said he thought all was not well after he jumped the first so he jumped one more to see if things would improve, it was after this that he knew something was wrong therefor pulled Isty up… Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I really do believe what happened was coincidental!March 13, 2002 at 21:35 #98620darioMember
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he never had a chance yestersay..i think they ran him knowing he was past it but maybe just maybe once he got running he’d be able to perform
but i think they knew it was a long shot and charlie was always going to pull him up as soon as possible..i think they just wanted him to bow out on the course in front of all his fans and pulling up 2 hurdles gone while still in front of the stands might well have been discussed
i’m not particularly having a dig as i understand their motives but i feel sorry for anyone who lost money on himMarch 13, 2002 at 22:14 #98621paul101Member
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hi Kathy, you talk of an incentive for the connections to run isty I believe the biggest incentive in the history of horse racing was on offer, although isty was clearly not 100% he had to be given the chance to become the greatest of all time with HATTONS GRACE,SIR KEN, PERSIAN WAR and SEE YOU THEN not being able to do the impossible I belive connections thought isty had to be giving the chance, and if he had pulled it off it would of put the record straight, as it stands, NIGHT NURSE is thought to be the best ever hurdler, with ISTABRAQ joint 2nd with MONKSFIELD.March 14, 2002 at 11:11 #98622AidanMember
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The moment Istabraq jumped off(even before the jump) he was changing lead legs constantly which resulted in him moving uncharacteristically unbalanced.I was one of the people who thought Istabraq would win etc but the second he jumped off I told the people around me that he’ll be pulled up any minute.If I spotted this so soon I suspect O’Brien knew immeadiately.Also Swan could be seen to be looking down at the horse legs after the first.<br> This talk of them bringing him over for the "theatre" etc is a load of crap.Look what happened Valiramix………….do you honestly think JP or Aidan would risk him?Anyway the course vet said the horse was injured……………so did they bring him over……..plan to pull up in front of the grandstand while in the mean time Swan managed to make the horse go lame?March 14, 2002 at 11:59 #98623
not getting defensive here, but doesnt charlie swans explanation, that he lost his action after jumping the first, went up the hill hoping that he would return to full working order, and as he didnt, He pulled him up fulfill all your questions. I dont see how this doesnt answer them. Charlie gave the horse the chance to correct himself if possible.
The connections gambled, went to the well once too often. ( He wasnt pulled up after two flights at leopardstown.) I think it is ridiculous to suggest that he went there for the theatre. He went there to try to create history. the connections were wrong. But i think it is disusting to think that the connections would run an unsound horse. If he was knowingly unsound why all teh clammer when Ned Kelly was " surprisingly" withdrawn.
Damned with sinister plot hatching if you pull a horse out, and damned with sinister plot hatching if you leave them in. Maybe the problem is the over cynical commentator.March 14, 2002 at 12:03 #98624AidanMember
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Of course they risked Istabraq……….every horse that goes racing is risked.Look at LLT today in the Gold Cup.But I really and truely believe that Aidan O’Brien BELIEVED the horse could have a serious chance on the day.There is no way they expected him not to be able to complete the course.As the reports are coming true now the horse was INJURED.March 14, 2002 at 13:19 #98625
if you think that 8/1 was a big price then why wasnt it snapped up by those poor stable hands. They had betting for where he would finish, there was betting that he would fall also. Id hate to say this but followng istabraq doesnt make you rich. The biggest gambe the connections had regarding the horse was Theatreword finishing second in his second champion. listen closely to the footage on AOB as theatreworld gets up.
I cant believe this is seriously being considered. Liek most people here, we were hoping that he could do it. It did happen Escorial, no doubts about that. What i find ridiculous is the suggestion that he was brought to cheltenham to run teh first two furlongs. i would think that AOB would know when his horses action was wrong and guessed that he would be pulled up, that he and charlie has instructions that were obviously not being followed signifying that he knew the horse had gone wrong. None of these i can prove but they are more plauisble than the suggestion that it was planned that he would pass teh stands and then pull up. How many parades will be pass the stands in at cheltenham? Its unformatuante that we wonlt have any other threads on either istabraq or valiramix but it is equally unfortunate that his conspiracy theory is being entertained by some regarding some of teh most sproting owners in these islands. JP wouldnt comment on the horse, just saying that he is OK , but the day belonged to HLL.
To be honest, i dont think that Istabraq was trained for teh race, in that he was given the same gentle kidding along for the year. I can remember years ago , o brien saying that he never schools the horse. He was brought to the day with kid gloves, not wanting to bottom the horse. They hoped that his ability would see him through. They fittest horse in teh race can get injutred or worse.March 14, 2002 at 14:20 #98626
i dont think istabraq was ever trained for the race especially this year. I think they brough him to the boil without stress testing him. That he gave way when the heat was on is no disgrace. i dont think he was unfit , but probably untested this year. The connections owed it ot the horse to run him. He hasnt let them down. Its easier to go to bed regretting something you did rather than something you didnt. He could have been withdrawn and charlie could have been hanged. he gave teh horse a chance. I dont mind this speculation, i dont liek the suggestion that this was theatre, that this was planned, that seems to be what you are suggesting with your premonition quote re aidan o brien. That is insulting and idiotic.
on the subject that there was betting available on where the horse would finish or otherwise. It is insulting to JP and to the stable staff who look after hte horse to suggest that he was run there to gain advantage of this promotion. 100, 000 went on LAB in teh supreme novices, how much would you get on in that bet. 500 max if that.
As i said i dont mind debating istabraq and his run/non run but this kind of speculation is simply nonsense. This is a horse that will be mention with Arkle, Dawn Run over here, you think that the connection would want that hanging over them…March 14, 2002 at 16:59 #98627ALIMember
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Istabraq was obviously unsound, if you watch the race agian you can clearly see by his head movement that something was amiss and that he was all out trying to keep up with the field shortly after jumping the first. Was Charlie Swan holding him back? That answer to that is no. Had Istabraq not been unsound he would have been able to go the pace………………… so what does that leave us with? Obviously Aidan O’Brien, JP & Charlie Swan all knew he was injured-unsound but decided to run him anyway? Or, he had not been in training and was so unfit that this was the reason he could not keep up. Is that what you are saying here, because it dosent leave many other options, but then it swings back around to the same fact again, he could’nt go the pace because something had clearly went wrong with him, all you have to do is watch the tape again. You get to see a good shot of him after he has been pulled up and you can see their is something wrong with his back hind right leg. This ‘theory’ holds no ground with me, i think its an insult to all connected to the horse. But we are entitled to our opinions, thats what this forum is for, i just think this topic is a bit rediculous to be honest!!!
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