March 20, 2002 at 16:34 #98776ALIMember
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Escorial, i think your clutching at straws here mate. You say that it was impossible to tell that Istabraq was in trouble until he had jumped the second hurdle……….. then i say your ability to read a race stinks. Shortly after jumping the first it was clear their was something amiss with Istabraq, his head movement told the whole story. I assume you have the race on tape, so go watch it, stop zooming in on what Aidan O’Brien is doing and pay attention to the horse in question.
Add to that Charlie Swans comments after the race (which you seem happy to ignore) and it is obvious to almost everyone but yourself that you are talking through your rear end on this one.March 20, 2002 at 16:36 #98777ALIMember
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Quote: Escorial<br>Channel 4 wouldn`t do that would they?
<br>Now your having a laugh……………… :shades:March 20, 2002 at 17:00 #98778johnny boyMember
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Just checking. If you were watching from home, how can you be sure of the general accuracy & timescales of what you describe i.e.
No vet was present as Istabraq was led around only the lass & the camera crew – Did you have a choice of camera angles or a special "vet cam" perhaps to check that the vet wasn’t maybe just out of shot?
Istabraq was ridden back after pulling up – Only back as far as the finishing chute (about 20 yards) before Swan dismounted
Istabraq was dope tested before being seen by a vet – Dope tests are conducted by the racecourse vet so unless he did the test blindfolded then he must have given the horse at least a quick once over.
AOB was out of the stands long before Istabraq was pulled up – could this not be a case of a bit of editorial licence from the C4 team?
It almost seems Escorial, as if you are manipulating the facts to support some pre-conceived idea you have. That wouldn’t be like you at all. Would it?March 20, 2002 at 17:40 #98779AidanMember
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Escorial do you believe Istabraq was injured or not?<br>Kathy!!!! Istabraq wore that "outfit" at Leopardstown at Christmas and on ALL his runs last season!!!March 20, 2002 at 17:59 #98780Daniel McDMember
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Well said Aidan on the last point, showing up some of these people for being complete bluffers…re:the black hood reference
Escorial, the minute you said you watched from Channel 4 then your argument really doesn’t have credibility….
I thought it an awful coincidence the Channel 4 cameras were on Henrietta Knight after the Gold Cup. I believe this to be a conspiracy, the type of which I do not yet fully understand but I believe it involves a scam taking in all the trainers of the beaten horses in the Gold Cup, the jockeys, the industry, the public and indeed, Princess Diana who in fact did not die in a car crash as previously stated but is actually living in Malaysia orchestrating a very shrewd and clever betting ring. Well, so my "contact" told me anyway
Kathy, do you not see an awful lot of the grey areas existing have been created by you ???March 20, 2002 at 18:17 #98781DJMember
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ESC- just a point on the CH4 cameras, surely they have cameras focused on most of the leading trainers to capture their reactions…. i dont think there is anything in the fact that they had a camera on AOB.March 20, 2002 at 19:02 #98782Daniel McDMember
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With Istabraq, a living legend nothing is ever going to be a normal but I believe his preparation going into the race was no doubt not much different to many other horses that ran last week with some doubts over their fitness…March 20, 2002 at 19:11 #98783FlagshipMember
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Kathy, you certainly have the bit between your teeth on this one!
I have to admit that I am not 100% happy with the whole situation though have a few thoughts….
1. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I would agree with Esc and John Mc in that AOB was pretty clear in the build up and did not put any punters away. If you wanted to listen to what he said then you could not back Ista.
This can be taken a couple of ways…..a…they were trying their hand one more time for history in hope only (very possible)…….b……they were going, knowing the horse had no chance and putting on a final show (I have also heard Kathy’s rumour from the course)
2. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I know jack about horses running and fitness, however from Tatts and the big screen (assume these are the same as Channel 4 pictures) it was clear Ista was beat after jumping the first. The horse was unable to hold its position in behind the leaders. Again, I have no idea about horse-flesh – whether this was due to a clear injury or jockeyship I have no idea! (Esc – I have to disagree with you on the pictures, though share your concerns as a whole)
3. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 8/1 was certainly available for the horse being pulled up as a novelty bet. I very much doubt anyone got Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£100k on at that price – this is a wind-up and can be ignored.
4. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Arguments about JP McManus not being interested in a few extra thousand here or there. If he is not interested in cash, why does he keep backing these horses?? The buzz? Surely he would get this from owning the horse. I find this hard to believe this guy is not interested in cash when he can put Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£100,000 on a 7/4 shot.
4. I have to agree with all the comments in the newspaper article posted above. MC Pipe would have a real grilling…..there seems to be a taboo around knocking the ‘great’ Istabraq and connections. I for one wanted Ista to win and see history in the making and was very disappointed with the outcome of the race. I also backed the horse for reasons known only to my heart. only with a small amount as I would like to have said I backed it in its final win in the race.<br> <br>5. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Is it coincidence that Barry Dennis’ name also appeared in that article? Kathy, do you know if the guy who tipped you off is a good mate of Barry’s? (I would not be surprised)
6. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I find it quite hard to blame either trainer for putting anyone away,or bookies cashing in as the trainer was very clear in his interviews and PR around the horse that it would not win. The bookies, well who can blame them for cashing in after 2 nice Irish winners in the first to races.
It certainly is an interesting topic and I have to agree with Kathy that a lot of what we are discussing in one race takes place many times a day. How many times are 2 year olds, bumper horses, horses waiting for handicaps really tuned up to run on their merits???
We all know part of this game is second-guessing who is, and who is not trying 100% to win any given race…..<br>the whole world knew about the Pipe horses and are any of us really that surprised about Istabraq??<br>(I’m not and I commented that 8/1 looked a big price in the morning as they were always likely to look after the horse…..why did I not back it you might ask? Well, for the same reason as why I backed the horse to win, heart and emotions ruling head.)
7. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Why is there no clear press coverage on the same lines as our forum????
– Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â they know it is just unfortunate the horse was injured and therefore there is no news……..?<br>- Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â there is a real stink, however no-one has clear evidence and do not fancy hefty lawyers bills, so are keeping quiet…..?<br>- Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â for once, the Brits have build someone/thing up and are being polite enough not to pull it down (for once….look out Will Young)
<br>I think this is touching on the, is racing bent question???<br>Sadly, this time it is in full view of the public and around a national hero so the subject is ever more touchy……<br>who knows about the Ista saga, though for the record I’m pretty sure that racing in general is about as straight as the Pop Idol chap mentioned above….
PS – I also backed Darapour that was pulled up and did not try a jot….no arguments as whilst I was gathering all the 25/1 I could find it was pissing it down outside…and would never have won on the ground as it turned out..<br>March 20, 2002 at 19:19 #98784jjimpsMember
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Whilst watching the Champion Chase on course the commentator said oooo and Latalomne’s down then on the big screen where I was watching the action Latalomne took off hit the fence and fell about one sec later !!!
conspiracy or a slight delay on the screen action hmmmm I wonderMarch 20, 2002 at 20:57 #98785AidanMember
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Hey Kathy……….not sure what the exact purpose of it is for.I have seen it used on other O’Brien horses.It looks to me simply keep them warm while travelling and possibly relax the horse.It would hardly disguise any injury etc.Sorry not much use.March 20, 2002 at 21:42 #98786gruntfuttockMember
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Just to pick up on DJ’s point, Channel 4 did have cameras pointing at most of the trainers of the big races – I know because I stood next to one of their producers filming Noel Chance during the Gold Cup.March 20, 2002 at 22:30 #98787NatalieMember
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Having been there when Istabraq arrived I can categorically state the horse was not wearing a hood and was not shaking like a leaf and I have also seen tv pictures of him being led from the plane at Bristol into his horsebox once again with no sign of this.March 21, 2002 at 00:08 #98788KatyMember
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Dont all of Aidens horses fly over to race in England, I’m sure I read somewhere before Chelts that they were going to a different Airport to the other Irish horses,
I’m guessing the hood he’s wearing is one of these Lycra things, which are pretty popular in the showing world, not seen it very much in racing. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â It protects the mane and shoulders while travelling stopping the rugs rubbing and keeping them clean. Nothing suspicious there.
Esc.. I dunno if i’m watching the same Channel 4 from Cheltenham as you were, but i’ve been all the way through from the start of the Champion hurdle to the beginning of the next race and at no point is AOB shown walking away during the race, before or after Isty pulls up. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I’ve been over and over it about 5 times and the only time I think i’ve seen it is during the montage thing they put together, in which case it could have been done at any time. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â There is absolutly nothing on the live pictures.
As for the injury, unless something is broken, a horse is usually kept on the move, espec with muscle problems, to stop them tying up and be even worse. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â We had a horse who had a bone chip removed from his stifle and he had to have 15-20 mins lead out twice a day and that was a much more serious injury to what Isty has.March 21, 2002 at 08:41 #98791robgommMember
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Thanks for telling us about horses being kept on the move when they don’t have broken bones from an injury Katy.
Esc, to find out about the drug testing procedure i’d call the Jockey Club or Cheltenham racecourse – i understand what you’re saying about the horse being given a drug test before being treated but i’m not sure if that is the case and the best way to find out about that would be to call the course again.
I’ll call them myself when i have a little more time and see what i can find out.
Kathy, why is it surprising that connections didn’t want Istabraq to be swamped by the press? He’s a highly strug racehorse and being snapped by photographers will hardly do him good. Maybe connections felt he was too excited or camera shy. I don’t think it is a cause for concern in anyway.March 21, 2002 at 10:13 #98793beardMember
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This is an amazing thread and looks sure to go on and on and on……………..
My post stating that JP had backed both LL and VAL.<br>lacked only one piece of info.I was aware of this B4 the race ,not after.
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