Forum Replies Created
- Posts
I’m sure it goes on, and i hope those who benefit are brought to justice. I dont know any of the people involved. But in hindsight Venn Ottery should have been odds on against Tollbrae and good luck to anyone trying to prove that that race was fixed.
I thought teh first round of Hagler – hearns was the best 3 minutes of boxing that Ive ever seen. Unbelievable stuff.
of course Istabraq was hated for his name, and had fewer followers as a consequence…..
talk all you want about BIF and IF, adn whoever else you want. I will say now that whatever beats sporazene in teh champion hurdle will win it.
And i have backed Rb for the champion already at a lot bigger than 4/1, i backed him last year on the day and have no axe to grind against the horse, but it was a soft race. Rhinestone cowboy didnt jump at all. Westender got left at the start, lost teh scottish champion to TTAT, and pulled up in teh fighting fifth. self defence, a maiden hurdler beat the rest. IF finished fifth having possibly gone off too fast, finished behind the frecnh furze and geos. Rooster Booster himself got beaten by sacundai in a very hard race over 2m4f – it is far from definite that teh whip made any difference – it is simply speculation. Sacundai then lost to Holy Orders at Punchestown.
Rooster Booster was impressive winner but there are more lots of holes in the form. He is vulnerable to something that missed the race. Sporazene to be will be able to travel with him.
just two things from me.
1) i think sporazene could travel off any pace and the wya he travelled up the stright when all otehrs bar one fell away after making a horlicks of the last was impressive. Havent been more impressed since RB beat MR Cool. He is second best in my books.
2) apart from him, the only danger to RB winning the chmapion might be the fact that he just might be in decline. It was an unusual feat that he improved so much so late, but one that took him to the top of the tree. However age is still not on his side. I wouldnt go against teh horse on this, but i would have expected him to beat Sacundai easily last time out, ( i dont go with teh Johnson blew it theory) and he hasnt been out since. If he is anything like the same horse he was last march, and sporazene doesnt improve like he might, then its all there for teh taking.
Clivex, can you please stop stereotyping me as one who holds a grudge agaisnt the british for the famine, 800 years of repression. They go to parkhead. It is you that has the xenophobic attitude to punters, tipsters and commentators. I respect an english punter of being able to see through the jingoism. I dont begrudge all melbourne cup winners being called british. When was any french winner at the breeders cup called british – teh cheek. I dont mind anyone saying that I live on the british isles. So, please stop stereotyping me. There are irish who go bananas over horses and like to see it as as a nationalist thing, but there are plenty of british who react to this and automatically run down the achievements of horses loved by the irish nation. Dawn Run in one of those horses.
Anyway, thanks for the lesson in patronising. If Arkle mill house is the only gold cup of better quality, then you are proving my point.
How many times do I have to repeat it, i dont think that Dawn Run was one of the greatest horses ever. I never mentioned that I thought she was better than arkle, captain christy, etc. ( id require proof that she was better than Bregawn, Midnight court, and Silver Buck – who nostalgia i think makes them face better opposition than they really did) I never said that I thought she was better than night nurse etc over hurdles. You can add Istabraq and even aldrebrook as better champion hurdlers in the last ten years. Again, i presume this is what you think paddy would say as revenge for the famine and what not. Cop on and have a proper arguement. You said she was the moral winner of the 86 gold cup. I said she wasnt. The idea that wayward lad was so far better than her is preposterous. I dont think that teh 5lbs made a lot of difference, as i dont think she enjoyed racing that much and had to be bullied to do anything on the track.
I do think that the likelyhood is that she would have beaten the thinker in 87 had she been alive and well. It was her fifth chase. I think tehre was one gold cup winner that had run in fewer chases. Waht actaul rating did Dawn Run achieve? I dont think that it was in the 180s – like Burrough Hill Lad, Carvills Hill, or See More Business. Where ever she was she should be at least equal to if not in front of Wayward lad.
The idea that she wouldnt be able to act or jump round kempton is another nonsense.
And wherever you rate wayward lad, dawn run has to be right there with him. Allied to that she won a gold cup and a champion hurde.
Lads as i have explained i am just trying to figure out why Dawn Run doesnt get the credit she deserves. I dont know new member clivex, but the conclusion that Ive reached is that there are some who dislike any hype surrounding irish horses. This causes them to be crabbed unfairly and judged harsly. This is a recurring theme. If this is taken up as nationalism then i think you are both wrong, paranoia possibly, inferiority complex possibly, nationalism not. I still think that it is the most compelling argument as to why she is seen as not worthy of being up with Wayward lad, why she wasnt the moral winner of the 86 gold cup. To be called only useful. Ian, how far behind wayward lad would you rate dawn run and why?
I dont think Wayward lad could ahve beaten buck house over 2m or come next or near to winning a champion hurdle. I also think that you are making a bold judgements on Dawn Run when comparing her to Bula or Night nurse. She won the gold cup on her fifth chase start. You mention that teh champion hurdle wasnt a vintage renewal. I am struggling ot think of a better field for a gold cup. She started 15/8 fav, after falling on her only attempt at the course.
Clivex, thats more mature, but can i say again that there are plenty of irish who will follow horses over a cliff on the basis of a couple of promising runs. Youlneverwalkalone is one. (then again he did win at 10/1 this year) However, not all irish punters bet through their heart. You are right though, most of OXx and weld’s horses dont get the coverage that o’brien does and seem to be liked more on that side of teh water. Because of that hype, many of the horses are in fact turned against. (I do blame the media – derek thompson was on teh ML on staurday saying that they thought Magritte was something exceptional. No they didnt.) Florida Pearl was proclaimed as the next arkle, by the media, not by willie mullins.
Its this idea that has turned people against Dawn Run, using simplistic arguements re the 5lbs and cima to knock her down. She was about as good as Wayward lad over fences. But there is a perception that teh gold cup was a fluke and that wayward lad could give her a stone. The most overrated horse in jumping. Well wahtever mark the moral winner of the 86 gold cup gets in your mind, Dawn Run should be within a pound. Added to the fact that she won the champion also. Different gravy really. She is a completely underrated horse by the pros, but as a horse that got into a nations consciousness, more so than any dessie did, she is always going to be accused as not being as good as she was heralded.
Does anyone remember the mistake she made at the top of the hill. Seriously, it would have knocked the stuffing out of most horses. An immensly brave if awkward mare. It looked like she had nothing to give 2 out, but the jumps that she produced over the last two -for the most part for jonjo’s were outstanding. They broke the track record also that day.
sorry small amendment. Dawn run was about the same level as Wayward lad as a chaser. She was far better over hurdles. Just a better racehorse in general.
I wouldnt call myself nationalist when it comes to racing. One of teh best bets of last years festival was Baracouda to beat Limestone lad. delighted that he did really at the back of it all. But I do think English are prone to automatically running down any irish hyped horse regardless of their ability. L’escargot is another example, the only horse this side of WW2 to have won a gold cup and a grand national, to have won 2 gc, 2nd in another national, 5th in a champion hurdle, and a supreme (gloustershire hurdle) is an outstanding career, but eve he doesnt often get associated as a truly great racehorse.
Again, with the Cima arguement, as if cima was the only horse in the race, again with the 5lb allowance. Use gaye brief (injured before the race), use very promising, use buck house. It wasnt the best Champion hurlde, it again was far from teh worst.
Calling Dawn Run useful may be TRF irish baiting, (ian, trust me, you werent around when it was at its best) and shouldnt really respond to it, but i do take people at their word on the forum. "Wayward lad would jump her silly". The gold cup was her fifth chase, she went off at 15/8. She had plenty of ability. She had one novice chase in her lifetime. It was the cold weather and not the five pound allowance that did wayward lad. And even that is being generous, he didnt properly stay.
I’M sure that Bula and Night Nurse were superb chasers/hurdlers but they didnt win the gold cup. I dont know what teh arguement here is, I would think that both were better than Dawn Run, I never said that I thought she was a great horse, possibly the greatest racemare over fences, but i said she is an underrated horse.
You talk as if the 86 edition was poor. Compare it with little owl and silver buck. Obviously DAwn run wouldnt have got near those. Those john Bull antihype sunglasses again.
3rd ot dawn run – Forgive n forget – 85 gold cup winner – should ahve won it in 88 when breaking down when cantering.
2nd to dawn run – Wayward lad, – 3 times KG winner – super horse, now dead, RIP. Third in 83 gold cup, ahead of silver buck.
4th – Run n Skip – welsh naitonal winner
rhyme n reason – irish and english national winner fell at the top of the hill.
I dont knwo why you cant accept that Dawn Run was about as good as Wayward lad. Maybe not to the pound, but anyone thinking there was a huge difference between them is either talking out of their hole or biased against Dawn RUn for some reason. I think it’s b) beacuse she was irish trained and succeeded.<br>
clivex – I think that my response was very mature. I dont want every english horse to lose. If you picked that up in my postings – any of my postings – i think you are due a trip to the opticians.
"You never listen to irish punters or tipsters"
It in fact is you, CLivex, that has displayed the xenophobic attitude that I alluded to. It is believed by non-irish horse race fans that the irish only bet with their hearts and are incapable of viewing horse racing objectively like the other more rational british. Thanks for proving my point. There is a idea that anything the irish think is brilliant cant be that good.
Rory, thanks for the objective view of the horses form. She wasn’t the greatest gold cup winner, but she was far from the worst, and possibly beat one of the all time great gold cup fields. I’ll put it this way. I’m sure there are plenty on there that would think that Wayward lad would give best mate a run for his money, but that Dawn Run wouldnt get within 20lengths. As you said, Go figure. The problem with Dawn Run was the owner and her greed, bordering on disdain for "the mare".
I think Night Nurse – one of my earliest racing memories is watching her p**s
up in a three horse race – must have been some horse. Officially rated the best hurdler ever. However many on here, seems to decry the achievements of dawn run. I know i am beginning to sound paranoid, but i am trying to figure it out in my head. Its the anti-hype that the english use against each irish horse that is proclaimed as great. We got it right about Arkle and our horses repuations are still paying for it. But, pass a 5y0 irish-bred onto Henrietta knight and watch the defence of the horse.How far clear was Dawn Run ahead of the beloved Desert Orchid, Very Promising, and teh supreme novice winner Buck House in teh champion hurdle. Had Cima not been in the race, she would have beaten a decent field a long long way, yet fools trying to misconstue the form always come out with teh CIMA arguement. The fact that she lay up with a breakneck gallop set by desert orchid, quickened off the turn, dessie long since gone, and stayed on up the hill was remarkable.
She also ran gaye brief to half lenght as a novice, and having run the day before. She beat Gaye Brief at Kempton also.
The gold cup was her fifth chase, a month later she beat the queen mother winner over 2m by 5l off levels. Just because it is assumed, by non-irish people, that every thick irishman/woman orgasms at the mention of the words Dawn Run, shouldnt be a reason to jusge her racing career subjectively. her victory got people who had no interest in racing to like the sport, maybe those scenes p**s
ed someone off.Dawn Run, possibly the most overrated jumper in history. Have you actually checked the ratings, or is it the most overhyped horse in history. I think in the 17 years since her gold cup win, there has been 1 CH winning mare, 1 GC placed mare, no instance of a horse completing the double. Celtic Shot did give it a go.
There are very few horses, mares or geldings, that have the versatility and speed to win a champion hurdle, and the stamina to win a greulling gold cup. one again run at a breakneck speed, with Dawn Run in the van the whole way. Run n skips, welsh national winner, stamina gave out in the race.
If lady rebecca won a stayers, there wouldnt be a word on the 5lb allowance.
I was going to give a prize for the first person to mention the five pounds allowance. An arguement that doesnt stand much analysis IMHO.
Tell me how many mares have used this generous allowance to run in a gold cup, never mind to win it.
Why are there separate races for mature and developed men and women in athlethics? Is there any world record held by a woman that is better than the mens record? Why?
Anyway, I have a hobby horse on Dawn Run and dont mean to hijack WL RIP. He obviously was a very good horse, but he wasnt the best horse not to win a gold cup, and he wasnt the moral winner of the 86 gold cup.
Wayward lad
The horse didnt stay up the hill full stop. If he had a prep run, i dont think it would be any different. I know it was an exciting, probably the most exciting of any gold cup, but Dawn Run in the did win by well over a length in the end, closer to two. The fact that she was able to win the champion hurdle over 2m seems to be forgotten by those who knock her.
Wayward lad was slightly before my time, and i dont appreciate him as much as some. I can only remember him well from the major races, gold cups, KGs, and a race at Liverpool where he fell. Lovely looking horse.
