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Thats a childish response
Why is it that so many Irish people have to see racing as a naitionlistic issue?
Its one reason why i never listen to Irish commentators, tipsters or punters. You just know what they are going to say irrespective of merits
I dont think it is unreasonable for people to state that they feel taht Dawn Run was abit overrated (and there was alot of simpering hype at the time…lets face it) in the same way that people may not quite rate Falbrav or Oasis Dream as highly as others. its one of the appeals of racing that there is so much debate, but its only worthwhile when clear of prejudices
One of the appeals of racing is that it is generally not a flag waving industry. Lets keep it that way,
there are simply too many celts (who seemingly happily live over here) who spends their whole life wnating everything english to lose. i would hope that that doesnt include yourself.
Does it?
Cheers Morgans Harbour ~ I was gearing myself up for  a defence of Dawn Run this morning. She was not kindly campaigned, and we never truly saw what she was capable of given that she only ran in 7 steeplechases in her life.
Her achievements were stunning ~ she wasn’t roughed off after winning her Champion Hurdle, but went on to win the Prix Barka and Grande Course de Haies d’Auteuil.
Gaye Brief was hard to catch right, but absolutely top drawer on his day and Dawn Run made him fight hard in the Templegate Hurdle just a day after winning the novice hurdle at Aintree.  Similarly Buck House was brilliant on his day and he was destroyed by Dawn Run in that match race at Punchestown.
No one claims that Best Mate’s defeat by Wahiba Sands makes him less of a champion, but Dawn Run beat the Champion Chaser at his own trip, after winning the Gold Cup.  As our American cousins say, go figure!!
There are doubtless poor Champion Hurdles and poor Gold Cups, but why do you think no-one else has managed to do the double? Credit where it’s due lads.
clivex – I think that my response was very mature. I dont want every english horse to lose. If you picked that up in my postings – any of my postings – i think you are due a trip to the opticians.
"You never listen to irish punters or tipsters"
It in fact is you, CLivex, that has displayed the xenophobic attitude that I alluded to. It is believed by non-irish horse race fans that the irish only bet with their hearts and are incapable of viewing horse racing objectively like the other more rational british. Thanks for proving my point. There is a idea that anything the irish think is brilliant cant be that good.
Rory, thanks for the objective view of the horses form. She wasn’t the greatest gold cup winner, but she was far from the worst, and possibly beat one of the all time great gold cup fields. I’ll put it this way. I’m sure there are plenty on there that would think that Wayward lad would give best mate a run for his money, but that Dawn Run wouldnt get within 20lengths. As you said, Go figure. The problem with Dawn Run was the owner and her greed, bordering on disdain for "the mare".
I wouldnt call myself nationalist when it comes to racing. One of teh best bets of last years festival was Baracouda to beat Limestone lad. delighted that he did really at the back of it all. But I do think English are prone to automatically running down any irish hyped horse regardless of their ability. L’escargot is another example, the only horse this side of WW2 to have won a gold cup and a grand national, to have won 2 gc, 2nd in another national, 5th in a champion hurdle, and a supreme (gloustershire hurdle) is an outstanding career, but eve he doesnt often get associated as a truly great racehorse.
Again, with the Cima arguement, as if cima was the only horse in the race, again with the 5lb allowance. Use gaye brief (injured before the race), use very promising, use buck house. It wasnt the best Champion hurlde, it again was far from teh worst.
Calling Dawn Run useful may be TRF irish baiting, (ian, trust me, you werent around when it was at its best) and shouldnt really respond to it, but i do take people at their word on the forum. "Wayward lad would jump her silly". The gold cup was her fifth chase, she went off at 15/8. She had plenty of ability. She had one novice chase in her lifetime. It was the cold weather and not the five pound allowance that did wayward lad. And even that is being generous, he didnt properly stay.
I’M sure that Bula and Night Nurse were superb chasers/hurdlers but they didnt win the gold cup. I dont know what teh arguement here is, I would think that both were better than Dawn Run, I never said that I thought she was a great horse, possibly the greatest racemare over fences, but i said she is an underrated horse.
You talk as if the 86 edition was poor. Compare it with little owl and silver buck. Obviously DAwn run wouldnt have got near those. Those john Bull antihype sunglasses again.
3rd ot dawn run – Forgive n forget – 85 gold cup winner – should ahve won it in 88 when breaking down when cantering.
2nd to dawn run – Wayward lad, – 3 times KG winner – super horse, now dead, RIP. Third in 83 gold cup, ahead of silver buck.
4th – Run n Skip – welsh naitonal winner
rhyme n reason – irish and english national winner fell at the top of the hill.
I dont knwo why you cant accept that Dawn Run was about as good as Wayward lad. Maybe not to the pound, but anyone thinking there was a huge difference between them is either talking out of their hole or biased against Dawn RUn for some reason. I think it’s b) beacuse she was irish trained and succeeded.<br>
sorry small amendment. Dawn run was about the same level as Wayward lad as a chaser. She was far better over hurdles. Just a better racehorse in general.
Ian,
saying the same thing twice doesn’t actually strengthen an argument.
Dawn Run’s achievements on the track speak for themselves, especially when you consider that her campaigns were not exactly guaranteed to show her in the best light, and that she died before reaching her full potential.
It’s churlish to ignore her defeat of Buck House at level weights and bang on about the fact that Cima wasn’t a great hurdler.
She wasn’t a clumsy jumper of fences either ~ she was error prone, but so was Wayward Lad as a novice. She was in fact quite breathtaking at times in her jumping, and as she learnt she would only have improved. Her win over Buck House was her best run over fences.
The other thing about her was her tenacity ~ she really wanted to win, and that’s why I don’t buy the theory that the 5lb allowance won her the Gold Cup. Her desire to win took her past Forgive N’ Forget & Wayward Lad on the run in. She would have been a nightmare to handicap.
By the way, you may notice my reluctance to join in every perceived debate on TRF’s very own "Irish Problem". I’m not being nationalistic, because I can’t abide jingoism ~ I just know a great performer when I see one.
In truth Morgan, U brought the nation issue up…not me.
I think it is true that the Irish have been prone to overhype a few horses and get a bit romantic and sentimental about some achievements, but thats fine…its all part of the game
I take what you say, but perhaps Ive listened to too many uniformed irish (and english of course) punters in pubs who think racing is the same as supporting football teams. cheltenham can get a bit like that and Irish raiders are often poor value in the market because of the enthusiasm behind them
We all ahve our biases of course. for my part I will bend towards trainers that i like and that includes Weld and Oxx. Aiden is a nice fellow too…but the connections…hmmmm
The real sadness is that Dawn Run didnt get a chance to complete her career, but i still feel taht Wayward lad was the finest chaser at that time in the same way that i am a believer taht the King george throws yup the best horse more often than the Gold Cup, which can be freakish
Thats another topic….maybe illstart that thread now
clivex,
I’m concerned about the Irish punters you’ve been talking to. Exactly what kind of uniforms were they wearing?
;)
Clivex, thats more mature, but can i say again that there are plenty of irish who will follow horses over a cliff on the basis of a couple of promising runs. Youlneverwalkalone is one. (then again he did win at 10/1 this year) However, not all irish punters bet through their heart. You are right though, most of OXx and weld’s horses dont get the coverage that o’brien does and seem to be liked more on that side of teh water. Because of that hype, many of the horses are in fact turned against. (I do blame the media – derek thompson was on teh ML on staurday saying that they thought Magritte was something exceptional. No they didnt.) Florida Pearl was proclaimed as the next arkle, by the media, not by willie mullins.
Its this idea that has turned people against Dawn Run, using simplistic arguements re the 5lbs and cima to knock her down. She was about as good as Wayward lad over fences. But there is a perception that teh gold cup was a fluke and that wayward lad could give her a stone. The most overrated horse in jumping. Well wahtever mark the moral winner of the 86 gold cup gets in your mind, Dawn Run should be within a pound. Added to the fact that she won the champion also. Different gravy really. She is a completely underrated horse by the pros, but as a horse that got into a nations consciousness, more so than any dessie did, she is always going to be accused as not being as good as she was heralded.
Does anyone remember the mistake she made at the top of the hill. Seriously, it would have knocked the stuffing out of most horses. An immensly brave if awkward mare. It looked like she had nothing to give 2 out, but the jumps that she produced over the last two -for the most part for jonjo’s were outstanding. They broke the track record also that day.
And wherever you rate wayward lad, dawn run has to be right there with him. Allied to that she won a gold cup and a champion hurde.
Lads as i have explained i am just trying to figure out why Dawn Run doesnt get the credit she deserves. I dont know new member clivex, but the conclusion that Ive reached is that there are some who dislike any hype surrounding irish horses. This causes them to be crabbed unfairly and judged harsly. This is a recurring theme. If this is taken up as nationalism then i think you are both wrong, paranoia possibly, inferiority complex possibly, nationalism not. I still think that it is the most compelling argument as to why she is seen as not worthy of being up with Wayward lad, why she wasnt the moral winner of the 86 gold cup. To be called only useful. Ian, how far behind wayward lad would you rate dawn run and why?
I dont think Wayward lad could ahve beaten buck house over 2m or come next or near to winning a champion hurdle. I also think that you are making a bold judgements on Dawn Run when comparing her to Bula or Night nurse. She won the gold cup on her fifth chase start. You mention that teh champion hurdle wasnt a vintage renewal. I am struggling ot think of a better field for a gold cup. She started 15/8 fav, after falling on her only attempt at the course.
Night Nurse was an exceptional hurdler in an exceptional era and was probably better than Dawn Run at that game.
But how on earth, Ian, can you claim that Dawn Run was not exceptional? Her record speaks for itself.
Nobody has won the Gold Cup and Champion Hurdle…except?
Novice winners of the Gold Cup are unusual (just think back to the Beef or Salmon controversy this year about even running a novice in the race).
Novice winners of the Gold Cup are an even more unususal.
Foreign-trained winners of the big French jump races are a rarity.
Mares capable of winning the top races are a rarity.
You’re barking up the wrong tree when you try to knock her record on the basis of ratings, Ian. Why is 70% of the prize money in most races awarded to the winner, even when the winning margin might be less than an inch after jumping 20 fences? Races are there to be won, and she beat the best around.
I well remember the Dawn Run / Wayward Lad race i had not long turned 18 and our gaffer at work took us all into the pub next door to where we worked that Thursday afternoon..and i remember like it was last week…it’s when you go back to some of the horses mentioned in this thread that reminds me just how spoiled we were for choice in the NH game then…looking back the other day through some old books reminded me of how many good horses were around..there is actually a book about Silver Buck on the bookshelves although i think you would have to go round some of the specialist shops to find it.
Ian,
I implore you not to continue this argument! Remember that it started as a bland assertion that Dawn Run was one of the most overrated jumpers ever. It doesn’t have to be an argument about whether Night Nurse was a better hurdler and Burrough Hill Lad a better chaser. The original assertion was plain wrong.
By the way, as the person who started the thread and eulogised about Wayward Lad, I’d like to ask whether there is an argument that he was in fact more hyped than Dawn Run. He was never an outright champion over fences according to timeform, and fell some way below the rating of Desert Orchid. We loved Wayward Lad because he was gorgeous to look at and a breathtaking jumper. His actual record on paper wasn’t that of an outstanding champion.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m first in the queue of Wayward Lad admirers, and I believe that just looking at the form book tells less than half the story, but that’s exactly what we’ve reduced this debate to, and to no benefit.
Rory
the unifors those punters were wearing were black balaclavas and…
sorry
Morgan<br>Agreed. Like Ian I couldnt care less where my favorite horses come from. There are trainers ii dont particularly like (Pipe for various reasons and one or two of the posh Newmarket boys who only ever underachieve) and that is where the only prejudices of mine come from.
It has sometimes seemed in the past that a slight doubting of Dawn run was taken as an attack on the whole Irish Nation, without understanding that the comments are based on technicalities rather than flags
But I still think that the best test of a staying chaser is kempton not cheltenham. thats not a Dawn run attack as much as a justification of WL. The fact is though that the gold cup has presented us with some daft winners over the years. Not always, but often enough. The layout and general conditions at Kempton make for a more telling contest, in the same way that you would generally prefer Newbury form to Goodwood
I also the belive that best Mate is right up there now and Desert Orchid is (more so than Dawn Run) strangely maligned by some.<br>
Clivex, can you please stop stereotyping me as one who holds a grudge agaisnt the british for the famine, 800 years of repression. They go to parkhead. It is you that has the xenophobic attitude to punters, tipsters and commentators. I respect an english punter of being able to see through the jingoism. I dont begrudge all melbourne cup winners being called british. When was any french winner at the breeders cup called british – teh cheek. I dont mind anyone saying that I live on the british isles. So, please stop stereotyping me. There are irish who go bananas over horses and like to see it as as a nationalist thing, but there are plenty of british who react to this and automatically run down the achievements of horses loved by the irish nation. Dawn Run in one of those horses.
Anyway, thanks for the lesson in patronising. If Arkle mill house is the only gold cup of better quality, then you are proving my point.
How many times do I have to repeat it, i dont think that Dawn Run was one of the greatest horses ever. I never mentioned that I thought she was better than arkle, captain christy, etc. ( id require proof that she was better than Bregawn, Midnight court, and Silver Buck – who nostalgia i think makes them face better opposition than they really did) I never said that I thought she was better than night nurse etc over hurdles. You can add Istabraq and even aldrebrook as better champion hurdlers in the last ten years. Again, i presume this is what you think paddy would say as revenge for the famine and what not. Cop on and have a proper arguement. You said she was the moral winner of the 86 gold cup. I said she wasnt. The idea that wayward lad was so far better than her is preposterous. I dont think that teh 5lbs made a lot of difference, as i dont think she enjoyed racing that much and had to be bullied to do anything on the track.
I do think that the likelyhood is that she would have beaten the thinker in 87 had she been alive and well. It was her fifth chase. I think tehre was one gold cup winner that had run in fewer chases. Waht actaul rating did Dawn Run achieve? I dont think that it was in the 180s – like Burrough Hill Lad, Carvills Hill, or See More Business. Where ever she was she should be at least equal to if not in front of Wayward lad.
The idea that she wouldnt be able to act or jump round kempton is another nonsense.
I was away for a few days, so maybe you’re all sick and tired of this thread by now, but I can’t resist making one last point.
Ian , you gave a list a number of Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup winners that you reckon were better at their respective disciplines than Dawn Run.
But that is missing the point. By my reckoning only two of those horses, Night Nurse and Captain Christy respectively, could conceivably have won both races. The rest were out and out specialists.
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