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Having made the trip down from Scotland to Ascot to witness the great horse himself in his last ever race, I feel that I can offer a little first hand perspective on this issue.
The ground was very soft that day, so a stamina sapping 10f.
Frankel cruised to the front, but his speed was blunted slightly by the mud. He cruised past Cirrus but then as soon as Queally asked for more he came off the bridle for the first time. By the line he was close to running on empty. He did not have much in reserve, and had this race been over 12f Cirrus would have stayed on and beaten him I reckon.
Having said all that, the Derby was not run on soft ground, but on firm. And it did not have a horse the calibre of Cirrus. Personally having seen him run a soft ground 10f I doubt he had the class to compensate for a lack of stamina over 12f. Over a mile the horse was great, but lets not pretend he could have been great over a distance he never tried, and for good reason.
Just my observations
I was also at Ascot that day and I would beg to differ. Cirrus Des Aigles didn’t make any ground on him in the last furlong. If anything, if you look closely, the distance between Frankel and Cirrus at the line was actually bigger than what it was at the last furlong pole albeit very slightly. This is further supported by the time sectionals from RUK (12.68-12.26-12.07-11.91). Frankel went quicker for every single furlong, with the last one being the quickest. So, he was hardly running on empty. In fact, that last furlong was even quicker than what Cirrus and So You Think finished in the same race the year before, and that was on good ground (I was there for that one as well, Champions Day is my new favorite racing day). I can see your point from a visual impression perspective, but I don’t think visual impression paints a very accurate picture in this case.
And, as you said, that race was run in stamina-sapping conditions and in that respect was a bit more than your usual 1m2f. It must also be noted that Frankel won on around 2100m at York, going further and further away from a confirmed 1m4f horse in St Nicholas Abbey. But coming back to the Ascot race, Cirrus Des Aigles was arguably the best heavy ground horse in the world up to that point having won his last three races in such conditions by around 9 lengths every time. Yet, that day, Frankel got the better of the second highest rated horse in the world on his favorite ground and trip, making Frankel the best soft going horse around in spite of the fact he didn’t really relish such ground. We shouldn’t forget that Nathaniel, a confirmed 1m4f and soft going horse, was well beaten in third. Nathaniel was from the same classic season as Frankel and in my mind would have won the Derby had he shown up. After all, he did win a much better race than the Derby in the King George against St Nic, Workforce and the ill-fated Rewilding a few months later. Yet, even if there were two more furlongs in that testing ground on Champions Day, there was absolute no chance of Nathaniel coming back to beat Frankel.
So, to sum up, I do think Frankel would have won the Derby that year. It might not have been his best trip but he’s so far ahead of the likes of Treasure Beach that I cannot possibly imagine the latter reversing the 11 lengths beating he received in the Royal Lodge, irrespective of the distance. Even Carlton House ,who did not really stay the trip and is hardly a third the horse Frankel is, finished a decent fourth. As someone mentioned, I believe the only reason Frankel could have lost that race is not due to pulling or not staying but possibly the hard race he had in the Guineas, which is the very reason he could have lost the St James Palace in my mind. I know Queally came in for a lot of criticism that day, but tbh had they ridden that way without the Guineas beforehand, he would have completely routed them. If anything, the Guineas ride was probably the more suicidal ride of the two and did take a fair bit out of the horse. But, it’s a credit to the horse exceptional ability that even after these two hard races, he did what he did to Canford Cliffs in the Sussex.
Okay fair point about the timings, and yes technically Frankel had pulled a tiny bit further away by the end. But I still maintain that by the line Frankel was off the bridle. Queally was pushing and shoving him and he was not going away in his usual gliding fashion. His stamina reserves were at their limit there. Just my opinion.
Frankel didn’t like soft / heavy ground, he won despite it, the ground blunted his speed a bit like it did on his racecourse debut, nothing whatsoever to do with stamina.
There are some people out there that STILL don’t realise just how good Frankel was. Frankel vs Pour Moi / Treasure Beach over 12f? Come on seriously, who the hell would’ve laid him?
Doesn’t really help the handicapper when they go that slow, and finish so close together.
That is so true. Ruler Of The World wouldn’t have been suited by a crawl. He has improved race by race and will probably improve further.
For what it’s worth I have him rated 117 as well but I expect him to improve on that.
Yep he’d have won on sheer class. Ability wise he had so much in hand he’d have won comfortably.
He reminds me a little bit of El Gran Senor who came so close to winning on class alone in 1984, only Frankel had even more class.
I’ve always said Frankel would’ve stayed well enough to win the Derby. He was a 140 horse that would’ve had to run to about 119 / 120 to win it, that is twenty pounds in hand. Dawn Approach is approx. 126 horse – there is the difference.
However you can’t knock Sir Henry’s handling of the great horse.
The idea of Dawn Approach being "got at" is absolutely absurd, with respect.
I thought C4 did a pretty good job. Simon Holt is a completely different league to Aussie Jim McGrath.
Whole coverage was a good 9 / 10.
Impressive performance. Considering that he had problems last year closing out races I
Did he, when? His last start over ten furlongs he beat St Nicholas Abbey into second in the Juddmonte behind the mighty Frankel. He got up close home that day how does that equate to him having problems closing out races that would mean he’d possibly be better at a mile?
Declaration Of War was an insane price, did anyone actually back this horse? If so, why?
Farhh is a very good horse and a great yardstick. He will be the benchmark in 8 / 10f group ones this season.
The coverage is very poor. Balding and her paddock routine is both redundant and difficult to watch. Connections are discussing plans etc and having a random microphone jammed in can be quite rude. These interviews are largely useless too, with awkward questions and often even more laborious answers. It’s niether good TV or productive. Then we have even more useless interviews with random semi-famous people who happen to be at the event. Why do i care why they are here? Should i be interviewed when i’m eating lunch and inform people i am eating lunch because i am hungry?
Then we have Mr Luck. Balding has IMO very little interesting or insightful things to say regarding horse racing and likes to indulge in cliches and rhetoric, but Mr Luck takes it to such a new level that one could say he isn’t even speaking English anymore. The drivel and the cliches …. there are old people in the bank at 10.30AM on a Monday morning who offer more coherent and useful observations which are doured in less 19th century cliches. His voice always has this particular tone whereby it’s difficult to imagine him engaging in a normal conversation. How does he speak to his mother? Mr Luck may know his racing, but it is masked behind an eastern bloc of useless and romantic idioms. I also have an irrational hatred of his forehead/haircut, but alas i cannot particularly hold that against him.
Then we have Mr Fitgerald. During the replays of the grand national, i believe he said "he’s having a whale of a time" at least 4 times within one minute. That rather sums up his role in this merry gang. He’s Mr Luck, after they have beaten him up for 10 years, taken off the box suit, beaten away all form knowledge and ability to reason, and added an irish accent.
Cunningham and Mcgrath do IMO work quite well together. They offer well reasoned arguments and clearly know their stuff. Cunningham has offered an outlet that Francome didn’t for Mr Jim. He now has somebody to engage with, rather than asking an interesting question and having Francome come back with a joke. The only gripe i have with Cunningham is that he looks like a vampire when he smiles.
I’m afraid the coverage has patently leaned towards the BBC style coverage i so disliked. The coverage is regular and "free"/available however and i will gladly take it. After all, i watch horse racing for the races, and no matter how many times Mr Luck decides to tell us a modern day fairytale story, they cannot present an actual race.
I have to admit to finding this post hilarious and yet I completely agree with practically all of it. You have the likes of McGrath and Cunningham that do know their stuff but they are bright lights in an otherwise eclipse of a programme.
Mick Fitzgerald and Tom Lee – Come on please these two are that bad it is cringeworthy and you feel embarrassed for them. They are absolutely abysmal.
Telescope out of the Dante now so must be considered a doubt for the Derby.
If it weren’t for the Irish the French horse would probably get a walkover. Pathetic from the Brits.
Set for a shocking home challenge once again. Were it not for Ballydoyle the Derby would dying a death now. Something needs to change fast.
I can’t wait either.
This one decent race per week (weather permitting) jumping is boring me senseless.
There was a lot of talk a few years ago questioning the narrative of the flat. If there’s anything that needs a narrative change its jumping.
It isn’t supposed to be one big laugh. I think the new format is better. Well done C4.
Was the best of a very mediocre bunch. good, solid G1 horse but certainly doesn’t deserve to be mentioned alongside Frankel, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Brigadier etc…
Red Rum won over 5f and 4.5 miles. He then must be the greatest horse of all time …….??
Just a silly argument!!
