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Where is the evidence that Dancing Brave ever idled? He didn’t idle when he won the Eclipse or the Guineas or when he won the Arc going away at the finish.
The "idling" theory comes from his King George win. Maybe that day he was simply getting tired?
I was a Suave Dancer fan at the time but I admit Generous was the better horse.
Doesn’t seem like five minutes ago. R.I.P. Generous.
Yes though he is retired Jonibake,you can still see the champ first up next month in the newly named ‘Black Caviar’ Lightning Stks Group 1 at Flemington.Though she came back into the stables weighing 610kg.That is a bit heavier then when she ‘TRAVELLED’ to England unlike some
No doubt a Jonibake bite Ha ha.
I actually think Black Caviar has a claim to be the best sprinter of all time. I’ve tried rating her alongside Dayjur but the problem is sprint form rarely stacks up its so difficult to rate.
If there’s one race I would’ve loved to see it is Black Caviar vs Dayjur over five or six furlongs.
Personal opinion, I think Black Caviar may have edged it …. just!
One thing for sure, we are currently living in a golden era akin to that of 1970-1972.
At last they have it right. Dancing Brave’s form NEVER worked out to 141. He beat about eight horses about four or five lengths were that many horses in one races all 130’s horses? Of course not.
I think they now have the ratings spot on. It’s been a common belief that ratings from the 1980’s in particular had been "wrong", now at last everything looks right.
It is the Sea The Stars thing that really irritates me. There is not one formline that entitles him to be mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of Frankel, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird, Ribot. He just beat a poor bunch, Mastercraftsman, Youmzain, Rip Van Winkle – they would be absolutely destroyed by the above horses.
Behave yourself Hurdygurdy how any times has Frankel wallopped Excellebration? Different tracks, different race tempo. Yet again Excellebration franks the Frankel formline. What a horse Excellebration is had Frankel not been around what would people be saying about him?
Well an enormous thank you to Frankel. He was the horse some people (myself included) wait all their lives to see. Magnificently trained by Sir Henry and coolness to die for from Tom Queally, St James Palace aside.
Frankel was nowhere near his best today. As Hurdygurdy said he missed the break four lengths and never looked happy on the ground. He still comes up to Cirrus Des Aigles a furlong out on the bridle and was actually going away at the line and Cirrus on this ground is an extremely good horse.
It has been a privalege and absolute privalege.
Thank you Frankel!!
I think the "Dancing Brave beat better horses" thing is rubbish. I presume Phil Smith is talking about the 100 or so that all finished in a line in the Arc? That many 130 (ish) horses in one race??? I think the liklihood is they were over-rated. The King George run was nothing amazing he scraped home. The Eclipse was a good performance but really better than Frankels Guineas or Juddmonte or Queen Anne?
There aren’t many people now who think Dancing Brave was as good as Frankel is, there is a good reason for that – he wasnt.
Funny enough his Arc win doesn’t rate as highly as you would expect among the elite judges of racing or so I read. I prefer to listen to the opinion of jockeys than outsider and for Pat Eddery to say he was the best ever he rode is some compliment..No doubt in my mind he was one special horse.
As good as Frankel? Highly unlikely he was very relaxed and a very easy ride according to Pat but how could anything cope with Frankel’s turbo engine? When he goes it’s unreal how quickly he brushes aside very good horses.
Hughsie thought Canford Cliffs was a monster of a horse and nothing on the planet could beat him. Trying to compare him to the likes of the very talented Paco Boy Hughsie would have laughed in your face he thought so much of him.
The thing is he was probably right and had Frankel not come along Canford Cliffs may well have been compared to some of the greats from the past. After all he had made Goldikova look ordinary and beat Rip Van Winkle over his best trip with Hughsie displaying pure contempt for the O’Brien star, giving him a 2 length start in the closing and then picking him off as he liked.
He was without doubt one class animal and would have been hailed as one of the best milers ever yet Frankel kicked him aside like a plater so I just laugh when people say Frankel hasn’t beat much.
We all fall into that trap of thinking so and so isn’t that good when Frankel kicks them aside but what a horse Exelebrartion would have been without him around.
He may well have been rated around the Brigadiers mark as without Frankel he may well have been going for his 13th consecutive win on Saturday. Imagine the write ups he’d be getting and how highly Timeform would have rated him had Frankel not existed.
A bit of a rant to get to the point that I agree Dancing Brave was no where near as good as Frankel only Secretariat and Sea-Bird can be mentioned in the same breath
I agree with you regarding Sea Bird but Secretariat was beaten too often for my liking, dirt alsso tends to exagerate winning distances.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didnt Eddery actually state that Golden Fleece was the most talented horse he ever rode?
I think the "Dancing Brave beat better horses" thing is rubbish. I presume Phil Smith is talking about the 100 or so that all finished in a line in the Arc? That many 130 (ish) horses in one race??? I think the liklihood is they were over-rated. The King George run was nothing amazing he scraped home. The Eclipse was a good performance but really better than Frankels Guineas or Juddmonte or Queen Anne?
There aren’t many people now who think Dancing Brave was as good as Frankel is, there is a good reason for that – he wasnt.
Sea The Stars is definitely over-rated. The horses he beat throughout his career were pretty ordinary.
The flat racing landscape is changing gents and I think its time we all got used to it. I love tradition but sometimes change can be for the best….
Champions day has and will continue to make a huge difference to the flat racing scene and the Champion Stakes (if it already hasn’t) will become the most prestigious race in Europe.1m4f just isn’t fashionable anymore, breeders want 1m2f horses.
…amazing the number of people who seem to favour such a change… and resign themselves to it…
I blame the Frankelistas, of whom there are many…. if he was winning over 12f no one would be talking this way…
I dont think that is true. I think for quite a few years now breeders have been targetting ten furlong horses. The Irish Champion has grown in significance now the English one is doing the same. I think its great for British racing, as a Brit I think its fantastic that WE now have a meeting that showcases the sport rather than America or France.
The flat racing landscape is changing gents and I think its time we all got used to it. I love tradition but sometimes change can be for the best. The Breeders Cup meeting and the Arc are no longer the must win events they once were. Champions day has and will continue to make a huge difference to the flat racing scene and the Champion Stakes (if it already hasn’t) will become the most prestigious race in Europe.
1m4f just isn’t fashionable anymore, breeders want 1m2f horses.
Camelot’s class carried him into second the truth is he didnt really stay well enough he couldn’t quicken at the extra distance.
There was nothing wrong with O’Brien’s ride, no one criticised Queally for riding Frankel in a similar way at York did they? The difference is O’Brien today just didn’t have the horse under him.
Despite the rubbish spouted on C4, Camelot would’ve won easily at a mile and a half because he would’ve quickened at about the ten furlong mark. Camelot just couldnt quicken after travelling a couple of furlongs further.
I said as a two year old Frankel would stay a mile and a half just like I never doubted he’d stay ten furlongs. Not even Sir Henry gets absolutely everything right.
As someone said previously – normal rules do not apply to Frankel he is the exception that proves the rules.
Frankel wouldve won the Derby and he’ll win the Arc if he goes there.
Outstanding performance, he won in the style usually displayed by Black Caviar and for a minute I thought he’d stay on the bridle all the way.
His detractors may say he beat the usual suspects in his back yard again and the second horse again has won nothing more than a handicap but the form figures don’t lie.
Lord Grimthorpe said the Arc meeting was on the cards anyway and now they may even consider the Arc so Ascot may not be his last race and if he can do the same abroad, even though France is hardly the other side of the world, that should put the full stop on his career.
I wonder if Ballydoyle will send any to the Ascot race?
I doubt it to be honest I cant think who they could realistically send. Had So You Think not been retired maybe they’d have run him. The problem we have is there is nothing left really to throw at Frankel. You have Cirrus Des Aigles and Nathaniel they are about the only ones and I cant see their connections being particularly keen.
He was unreal! I actually found myself getting nervous before the race! Hope we do see him couple more times at least, Teddy Grimthorpe did hint at the Prix du Moilin a while back… then obviously Champion Stakes. Cant see them going for the Arc.
Id rather they went to Ascot to be honest. Yes hed win the Arc, of course he would but his next race is likely to be his last let him run it at Ascot in front of his own people and get the send off he deserves. We wont see his like again.
He hardly has anything to prove lets face it, if he ran in the Arc would the odd remaining doubter want to lay him? Not unless they’re daft.
"Eclipse First" Frankel wasn’t even extended he past St Nick without Queally moving a muscle he had plenty left in the tank. It doesn’t matter whether its 5f or 1m4f he’s just levels apart.
Quite simply the greatest flat racehorse in my lifetime.
No doubt a Jonibake bite