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Wow – looks a cracking race doesn’t it! Frankel, CDA, Nathaniel, Ridasiyna, Pastorius, Declaration of War and Master of Hounds. Not forgetting dear old Bullet Train.
Frankel will have to produce his greatest ever performance to beat that lot on the likely ground.
I cannot wait!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Wow – looks a cracking race doesn’t it! Frankel, CDA, Nathaniel, Ridasiyna, Pastorius, Declaration of War and Master of Hounds. Not forgetting dear old Bullet Train.
Frankel will have to produce his greatest ever performance to beat that lot on the likely ground.
I cannot wait!!!
As he is 12lbs and more clear of the rest of the field then no it doesn’t have to be his greatest performance. The possibility of very deep ground makes and outstanding performance highly unlikely. It is far more likely that he will need to produce a more meritorious performance. The fact that he has won all his previous races means that by pure logic this is his toughest task on the racecourse as he has passed all those set before him.
Wow – looks a cracking race doesn’t it! Frankel, CDA, Nathaniel, Ridasiyna, Pastorius, Declaration of War and Master of Hounds. Not forgetting dear old Bullet Train.
Frankel will have to produce his greatest ever performance to beat that lot on the likely ground.
I cannot wait!!!
As he is 12lbs and more clear of the rest of the field then no it doesn’t have to be his greatest performance.
Yes it does. He is up against the second highest rated horse in Europe in CDA who is now only 10lbs behind him on an official rating of 130. This is the best horse, on figures, that Frankel has faced. Furthermore CDA is a proven mudlark who it looks like will be running on mud.
The possibility of very deep ground makes and outstanding performance highly unlikely.
Why? It makes the possibility of a fast time unlikely but why an outstanding performance?
It is far more likely that he will need to produce a more meritorious performance.
Blah blah blah – the same thing
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The fact that he has won all his previous races means that by pure logic this is his toughest task on the racecourse as he has passed all those set before him.
What an inane and meaningless comment. You are better than that
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It feels like you delight in peeing on my bonfires EF. Your posts thoroughly depress me – they seem so negative. Was there any need for it really? Mine was just a post expressing my excitement and anticipation.
Anyway this is hardly just my opinion but the opinion of many around the world. Frankel is taking on a world class field on ground that may well be unlike anything he has tried before. It is highly likely he is going to need to be at his very best.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Wow – looks a cracking race doesn’t it! Frankel, CDA, Nathaniel, Ridasiyna, Pastorius, Declaration of War and Master of Hounds. Not forgetting dear old Bullet Train.
Frankel will have to produce his greatest ever performance to beat that lot on the likely ground.
I cannot wait!!!
I’m certainly looking forward to the race but on ratings even allowed for the fact the 4yos+ will have to give 8lbs to Ridasiyna and 5lbs to Pastorius I don’t think it looks any harder for Frankel than it has done since CDA was a confirmed runner. He is still the top rated opponent Frankel has ever faced but is rated to be inferior by 10lbs. The last three in the list are no-hopers unless a miracle happens.
Frankel has won on soft and good to soft so unless it comes up heavy that wouldn’t be a factor though CDA and Ridasiyna have won on heavy ground. All in all he should win quite comfortably without needing to improve.
It is rather ironic that moving the race to Ascot makes the ground more problematic for the race.
Wow – looks a cracking race doesn’t it! Frankel, CDA, Nathaniel, Ridasiyna, Pastorius, Declaration of War and Master of Hounds. Not forgetting dear old Bullet Train.
Frankel will have to produce his greatest ever performance to beat that lot on the likely ground.
I cannot wait!!!
I’m certainly looking forward to the race but on ratings even allowed for the fact the 4yos+ will have to give 8lbs to Ridasiyna and 5lbs to Pastorius I don’t think it looks any harder for Frankel than it has done since CDA was a confirmed runner. He is still the top rated opponent Frankel has ever faced but is rated to be inferior by 10lbs. Apart from Frankel only CDA and Nathaniel are ranked in the top 10 and the last three in the list are no-hopers unless a miracle happens.
Frankel has won on soft and good to soft so unless it comes up heavy that wouldn’t be a factor though CDA and Ridasiyna have won on heavy ground. All in all he should win quite comfortably without needing to improve.
Ok – it’s just me then.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
No trainer who has won the likes of the King George and the Derby is going to send a top class
12 furlong horses
to Ascot unless he has a very good reason. He’d have to be totally mad to throw away a chance like that to put his stud value through the roof. Even Aiden knowing in his heart of hearts Camelot most likely wouldn’t win sent him despite the egg on the face.
What is John Gosden’s very good reason then do you think?
Like most horses going for a big race or a touch trainers have their blood checked a day or sooner beforehand. Nathaniel’s blood count was found to be wrong and was withdrawn.
What has and what always will shoot the Champion Stakes down in flames is it’s a 10 furlong race and how many times have we heard this year true champions win at 12 furlongs?
I doubt if Sir Henry would have hesitated for a minute running Frankel over 12 furlongs after York had there been a suitable race but it’s a know fact he is not a supporter of running horses in the Arc and he is in poor health so home was always going to be fav.. There’s always a chance he would have got bogged down in the ground and lost and been beaten, that’s the last thing he needed. Let’s get real though….Anyone who thinks there’s a horse anywhere in the world that would beat Frankel over 12 furlongs on decent ground on a decent course like York for instance, where bad luck doesn’t come into it, is mentally impaired as far as I’m concerned. The horse is at least 10 lbs better than any other horse on the planet.
As I pointed out already look at the past results this isn’t something that’s even debatable. No trainer who has won the likes of the King George and the Derby is going to send a top class
12 furlong horses
to Ascot unless he has a very good reason. He’d have to be totally mad to throw away a chance like that to put his stud value through the roof. Even Aiden knowing in his heart of hearts Camelot most likely wouldn’t win sent him despite the egg on the face.
Frankel’s cant go any higher as he’s already the highest rated horse of all time and had nothing to gain by going to France. He shouldn’t even be part of this debate.
We’ll never know if Frankel is the best horse over 12f and saying he is doesn’t prove it.
YES IT DOES
If Sir Henry has Frankel on song this should be all about what finishes 2nd.
Timeform have Cirrus Des Aigles rated 2nd only to Frankel and ideally they would love Frankel to beat him about 7 to 12 lengths to uphold their assessment of Frankel.
On soft ground which Cirrus Des Aigles love that may be too much to ask.
Nathaniel is not adverse to soft ground either and for me he’s the one most likely to follow Frankel home unless they do what Excelebration done and try and take Frankel on too early and end up falling in a heap.
Cirrus Des Aigles is not my fav horse but he’s a stone better than Side Glance who almost nicked 2nd that day so if Gosden wants to take home some decent prize money he should be giving instructions to ride Nathaniel to try and beat Cirrus Des Aigles and if Frankel happens not to be at his best over this trip in this ground grab the bonus.
I doubt if the ground or the trip will hold any fear for Frankel in a race that is without doubt his biggest Challenge since he met Canford Cliffs and like that day I think he’ll win by around 5 lengths
Ok – it’s just me then.
Actually it isn’t – Phil Smith, British racing’s senior handicapper in the Guardian yesterday:
"This is undoubtedly his stiffest test to date," Smith said on Sunday. "There’s no question that these are the best two horses he has taken on and he’s got it all to do.
"On soft or heavy going Cirrus Des Aigles is a serious horse. We don’t yet know that about Frankel because he hasn’t raced on the type of ground we have seen over the past week."
Will Frankel get through the mud? His connections seem sanguine about soft and point out that he has raced on it once before, when holding off Nathaniel by half a length on his debut in 2010. They may withdraw him if the going turns heavy.
"I don’t see why he wouldn’t cope with it," Smith said. "The thing about soft ground is that it inconveniences some horses, so he might win but whether he can produce the level of performance we’ve seen from him I don’t know."
That matters because, for all Frankel’s many impressive displays, Smith is still waiting for the colt to do something so dramatic as to make him the best horse in the recent history of the official ratings. To this point Frankel has achieved a mark of 140, putting him just behind Dancing Brave, who carried the same colours of Khalid Abdulla and scored 141 in 1986.
It is a source of some chagrin to Smith, whose personal feeling is that Frankel really is the best Flat racehorse of his lifetime. "But it’s difficult, at the moment, to prove it with the figures."
Frankel will be weighed in the balance for the final time in Hong Kong in December, when the world’s senior handicappers meet to agree on definitive figures for this year’s runners. His rating could go up at that stage but it could also go down. Bathos is the fear. Most racing fans feel Frankel deserves a better epitaph than "the second-best horse since 1985".
It is "hugely difficult" to make comparisons, Smith says, not least because handicapping has changed in personnel and in method over the past quarter-century. But the main problem is that Frankel has not faced the same quality of opposition that Dancing Brave pushed aside when winning his Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe.
"There’s no question that Dancing Brave ran against better horses than Frankel has met but then he never hammered them in the way that Frankel has. He gave them a start and ran past them.
"That’s the difference between these two. One has beaten good horses by a mile, the other beat very good horses by not so far."
Now, in Cirrus Des Aigles and Nathaniel, Frankel faces worthy rivals, though Smith indicates he might still need to beat them by five lengths to get to 141. Does the handicapper regret that Frankel has never been sent abroad in search of greater challenges, as Dancing Brave was?
"No, I want him to run in Britain. This race is shaping up to be the best race in the world this year and that’s what I want British racing to have. So let’s hope the three of them all turn up in good shape and we’ll see what happens."
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Well if Frankel were to get beat in soft/heavy it would prove without a shadow of a doubt how important the surface is to a racehorse…..other than that it would be a bummer and make a bad season into a worse one.
God forbid and Go!! Frankel Go!!
Never been a fan of Phil Smith.
Frankel will wipe the floor with this field on Saturday. He really is so much superior in every way.
Oh, and just for the record. I wholeheartedly agree with Prince Khalid Abdullah, owner of Dancing Brave and Frankel, when he was asked which one he considered the better horse.
" Frankel !", he said, without a moment’s pause.
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I think the "Dancing Brave beat better horses" thing is rubbish. I presume Phil Smith is talking about the 100 or so that all finished in a line in the Arc? That many 130 (ish) horses in one race??? I think the liklihood is they were over-rated. The King George run was nothing amazing he scraped home. The Eclipse was a good performance but really better than Frankels Guineas or Juddmonte or Queen Anne?
There aren’t many people now who think Dancing Brave was as good as Frankel is, there is a good reason for that – he wasnt.
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Completely agree, Ian. And let’s not forget that Bering finished the race on three legs, too.
Never been a fan of Phil Smith.
Frankel will wipe the floor with this field on Saturday. He really is so much superior in every way.
Oh, and just for the record. I wholeheartedly agree with Prince Khalid Abdullah, owner of Dancing Brave and Frankel, when he was asked which one he considered the better horse.
" Frankel !", he said, without a moment’s pause.
Born in the same decade as Denny Crane he probably too has Mad Cows Decease thinks Dancing Brave belonged to someone else.
I think the "Dancing Brave beat better horses" thing is rubbish. I presume Phil Smith is talking about the 100 or so that all finished in a line in the Arc? That many 130 (ish) horses in one race??? I think the liklihood is they were over-rated. The King George run was nothing amazing he scraped home. The Eclipse was a good performance but really better than Frankels Guineas or Juddmonte or Queen Anne?
There aren’t many people now who think Dancing Brave was as good as Frankel is, there is a good reason for that – he wasnt.
Funny enough his Arc win doesn’t rate as highly as you would expect among the elite judges of racing or so I read. I prefer to listen to the opinion of jockeys than outsider and for Pat Eddery to say he was the best ever he rode is some compliment..No doubt in my mind he was one special horse.
As good as Frankel? Highly unlikely he was very relaxed and a very easy ride according to Pat but how could anything cope with Frankel’s turbo engine? When he goes it’s unreal how quickly he brushes aside very good horses.
Hughsie thought Canford Cliffs was a monster of a horse and nothing on the planet could beat him. Trying to compare him to the likes of the very talented Paco Boy Hughsie would have laughed in your face he thought so much of him.
The thing is he was probably right and had Frankel not come along Canford Cliffs may well have been compared to some of the greats from the past. After all he had made Goldikova look ordinary and beat Rip Van Winkle over his best trip with Hughsie displaying pure contempt for the O’Brien star, giving him a 2 length start in the closing and then picking him off as he liked.
He was without doubt one class animal and would have been hailed as one of the best milers ever yet Frankel kicked him aside like a plater so I just laugh when people say Frankel hasn’t beat much.
We all fall into that trap of thinking so and so isn’t that good when Frankel kicks them aside but what a horse Exelebrartion would have been without him around.
He may well have been rated around the Brigadiers mark as without Frankel he may well have been going for his 13th consecutive win on Saturday. Imagine the write ups he’d be getting and how highly Timeform would have rated him had Frankel not existed.
A bit of a rant to get to the point that I agree Dancing Brave was no where near as good as Frankel only Secretariat and Sea-Bird can be mentioned in the same breath
@ Ian…
The ‘Dancing Brave beat better horses’ thing is debatable but NOT rubbish!
The 1986 Arc didn’t finish in a line.
There were more 130(ish) horses in DB’s Arc than there are in Saturday’s Champion Stakes.
Yes, DB did scrape home in the King George but then Frankel scraped home in the St James Palace.
I do confess that Frankel’s performances in the 2000 Guineas, Juddmonte International and Queen Anne were better than DB’s Eclipse
Do I think Frankel is better than Dancing Brave? I’ll let you all know after Saturday
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