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Firstly, horse racing is a sport. It is competitve. Godolphin/Ballydoyle take the money in the big races, because they have the money in the first place. That is not how racing should work. The money should be spread around so lesser stables can have a stab at races that suit there horses, and races in which the big stables won’t be able to take much of a hand in.
How can Ballydoyle/Godolphin be taken on? They have masses of GOOD quality horses. The Stoute’s of this world don’t have 100’s of regally bred horses at their disposal.
You’ll find that Ballydoyle will enter one of their better one’s in the Group One decs. Other trainers will withdraw their entries because they don’t want to take on O’Brien’s best horses and O’Brien will take out his best horse, leaving the race between several of his and a Godophin nothing horse along with a couple in their for the 4th/5th prizemoney.
The reason trainers don’t want to take on Ballydoyle or Godolphin’s best at 2yo’s? Because they don’t want to knacker their horse at 3. They only have that one horse (who they may believe is top class) and Ballydoyle/Godolphin have plenty more where one good one comes from.
The Meehan’s and Bell’s aren’t there to try to beat the Godolphin/Ballydoyle horses – they are there for a share of the prizemoney.
Is O’Brien taking on himself really that interesting? The Racing Post trophy was just him against him really! Uncompetitive stuff and who knows where they are on the pecking order…they could improve and be number one or they could be average group one horses.
Summoner didn’t do a proper job did he? He won. He wasn’t meant to win. Noverre was meant to win according to Godolphin. Now, tell me how a horse beaten in a listed race can suddenly go on and win a Group One. Because it had the run of the race…if Godolphin hadn’t used a pacemaker, Noverre probably would have won. Look at the Eclipse, that was run at a ridiculous pace and we ended up having a Group one with the first 4 a length apart!!
The problem with pacemakers is that we don’t get one of them, we sometimes get two or three – and they go to fast. Pacemakers aren’t put in a race to win it – they are put in to ensure a true pace and give the stables other horse an enhanced chance of winning. And if a horse isn’t put in a race to win….what is it? First word begins with N…..<br>
Johnny Boy – Ballydoyle/Godolphin don’t need to run Johannesburg and Sakhee over here. They can take them abroad and use their lesser lights in the Guineas and Juddmonte etc.
Smithy – "money goes to money" :racing is a competitive sport. Why should we let money go to money? By saying that, you are suggesting that we just let people dominate and forget the lesser trainers who have no right to win the bigger prizes because "money goes to money".
I disagree that it is good on them for entering half the fields in group one’s. They are lessening the competition and the Group One’s will end up carrying less prestige. It does get boring seeing O’Brien/bin Suroor battle it out – it might be fun for them, but for me it is dull seeing the money winning the money.
Why would a foreign trainer run a horse in a race where there are two or three pacemakers. This doesn’t make for a true run race, it makes for a stupidly fast run race. Front-runners who aren’t there to pacemake, have no chance.
Godolphin/Ballydoyle use pacemakers far too often.
The hunting of foxes has some importance Raz, but it is not as important as other subjects. It shouldn’t be taking up so much of the governments times.
Just make a decision Mr Blair…either ban it or keep it. I’m not really bothered which…just as long as it is sorted out ASAP and then we can all move on to discussing more important things that mean helping fellow people.
how about "it’s not important as" argument Razeen?
If it were a choice between you getting ripped up or a fox, which would you choose?
If i had the choice, i’d choose the fox, because you are a fellow human and more important than a fox. Humans must look out for each other rather than animals…that is why so many people eat meat, and yes, i’m a meateater.
The problem with Godolphin and Ballydoyle is that they devalue the Group One’s. Take a look at Summoner’s win at Ascot – the horse was a pacemaker and had the run of the race, yet took an expensive Group One.
O’Brien won so many Group One’s with 2yo’s. He has been known to enter 50% of a field at a 5day decs stage. How is this fair to the trainers with less cash behind them or less resources?
Can someone explain to me why we up the prizemoney for Group One’s year in year out? The money goes to Godolphin or Ballydoyle most of the time, and they don’t need all the money. If we lowered the prizmoney by say £20k in the Derby, and get the sponsers to spread it around a bit…there’d be more money in the lesser races and they’d be more competitve.
As things stand, the Ballydoyle/Godolphin tussle is dominating the Pattern race scene and making it a whole lot less enjoyable for those smaller time trainers trying to get their foot in the door. From a racing fans point of view…i get bored of O’Brien or bin Suroor winning so much. I’d prefer to see more competitve, open races.
Sorry Razeen, didn’t quite put forward what I mean. Dogfighting isn’t really more or less important that foxhunting. They both involve animals being injured/killed.
Why do we need to look at banning foxhunting over creating a safer society for ourselves? Why do we need to talk about banning foxhunting over talking about how we can help those worse off than ourselves?
I guess what i’m trying to say is, why do animals come before humans?
Humans are more important than animals. We must look out for each other rather than putting animals first. The government needs to look out for its people, the poor, the sick, the lonely, the unfullfilled…the government needs to look out for its people, rather than look out for foxes.
I don’t remember saying foxhunting was less important than dogfighting…just that dogfighting wasn’t small change.
Foxhunting is wrong in your opinion Razeen. That doesn’t mean all those registered to vote agree.
I’m not debating whether it is right or wrong. Just that there are more important things for the government to discuss. I don’t think foxhunting is very high on Mr Blair’s list of priorities.
Razeen – There ARE more important things to worry about rather than foxhunting!! Like humans killing humans and stuff like that…we can get to the morality of foxhunting when the more important things are discussed and ideas are put forward to help sort them out.
I think the governmant are contemplating banning foxhunters not because it is cruel etc, but because they think it will win them votes which it probably will.
And also, why is it ok for a fox to rip apart a hen but not ok for a hound to rip apart a fox?
If we humans were to shoot foxes would that be worse than hunting them with hounds or more humane? <br>
Dario – I think the talk about HLL and Bilboa is neccessary. I’m looking to get away from the front three (as i’m not sure which will win) and looking for a longer priced horse. Hors La Loi (who in my view likes Cheltenham a lot) has form behind Istabraq and retains ability. He should run his best race of the season at Cheltenham as that’s been his aim. I think he’s been forgotten about too easily…although he’ll have a hard job turning over form with Istabraq. Landing Light has beaten HLL but Hors La Loi should take him close again – if Landing Light wins, Hors La Loi won’t be far away on GOOD or FASTER ground.
That works out well as both the Racing Post chase and King George runners can run well in the Gold Cup and other Cheltenham races.
We already know Landing Light goes at Cheltenham so no problems for him.
Another plus for that statement: the Gold Cup winners don’t have to have won over 3m4f or further, a 3 miler can stay 3m 2f around Cheltenham…so history says anyway.
Obviously each horse is an individual. Looks Like Trouble ran a poor race at Kempton but still won the Gold Cup…but Kempton form works well at Cheltenham.
Thinking about it again, i guess they trained Valiramix up to have a go for the Tote Gold Trophy so he must have been doing some serious workouts.
He is good fresh, which is a plus but yeah i think you’re right when you saying Landing Light isn’t overraced.
Colin – I’m definately of the opinion that Hors La Loi favours Cheltenham and the Kempton is not his course. He could definately over turn form with Bilboa but will have to a bit more to beat LL.
Hors La Loi hasn’t shown his best form for quite sometime so it would be a gamble but he’s consistently good in his conditions and it is only a fair race by CH standards.
Anyone else spot any long shots that make reach the frame?
Bilboa is not all that consistent but, as said earlier, could come into the reckoning if you take her 4l defeat of Rodock, who beat The French Furze easily who was beaten easily by Valiramix etc etc…definately a maze!
Valiramix goes really well fresh so that could well be a big plus on the day. Landing Light’s been on the go longer than Valiramix.
I can’t rule out Hors La Loi.<br>Colin – "All you need to do is look back at his form since Cheltenham 1999, & concentrate on races where the going was genuinely good or better. Thats gives you a record of 11124223, all in Gde A races, & consistantly running to OR’s in the 150-160 region. When he hasn’t had those conditions, his record is 37PPP3."
That is quite a confidence booster! I think Hors La Loi will have a great chance on good or faster ground. He has the ability to get placed in what is definately an average Champion hurdle.
Valiramix and Landing Light were both raised significantly in the ratings when they finished third and first respectively in the Championship hurdle at Sandown.
The way they were risen seems to suggest that Geos ran to form…and i think we can say he didn’t as he should have beaten both of them. Is it possible that both LL and Valiramix have improved significantly since that Sandown race?
Landing Light had previously beaten Rooster Booster in the Tote Gold Trophy, that doesn’t merit a mark in the 160’s.
Valiramix had been second to Ibal (with old Rooster Booster in third) and that didn’t merit being in the high 150’s.
Valiramix is on a high mark (160’s) now but that is too high for what he has achieved. Landing Light hasn’t done enough to warrant such a high mark either.
This year’s CH must be an average one if two horses like these are so well fancied. I don’t think that, in a high class CH, they would have much of a chance.
Good point about him being schooled a while back Johnny Boy – i think you are very likely to be right about him having been schooled already and not shown any aptitude.
PR – yep, HHL definately doesn’t go on any sort of soft ground now, as you said, because he’s a bleeder. I do think he has a liking for Cheltenham more than any other course but i see your point about the uphill Ascot finish. I just have a feeling that he’s not one to totally rule out of the Champion Hurdle just yet. He does have ability and has been placed in the CH before.
Does anyone know how CH placed horses fare in future CH’s?
There could be a big priced horse making the frame in the Champion this season. It isn’t a strong race and there’s always the possibilty that one of the three market leaders will throw in a bad run, Valiramix being the most likely as his one run at Cheltenham was a well beaten one.
Where did i say vandalism or a local shop owner running a dogfighting show is small change to me?
These are the kinds of things i’m talking about! The above things should be discussed rather than foxhunting.
PR – good point about the fox hunters. Seems odd that all they have the time to do is hunt foxes.
I’m not saying it isn’t a cruel "sport", just that there are more important things to discuss.
The BHB wanted to show that their are groups opposed to racing and that their concerns matter. Animal Aid are one of the groups the BHB are allowing to post their circulars to racehorse owners – that is crazy. Animal Aid are extremists, they want racing as a WHOLE banned.
Razeen, there are violent crime issues to discuss such as muggings, rape, mobile phone theft but there are social issues to discuss too…racism for instance. These are more important than fox hunting.
PR – yep, the tally ho brigade are being protected by the law (well, not in Scotland anymore) which seems odd because as you said, they aren’t offering much to society.
I’m just voicing my opinion, not telling people to do anything. Sorry if i gave that impression. <br>Genocide overseas? That’s highly important…except i was talking about issues in our country and how important they are.
What is wrong with someone talking about making fences smaller or less stiff? Nothing at all. But if MP’s started debating that in the houses of parliament it would seem strange and a bit of a waste of time.
People on here debate horseracing as it is something they enjoy. Again, we aren’t going to go and talk about the Champion Hurdle winner in parliament are we? No we’re not because they have more important things to discuss than Istabraq.
If they wanted to make it legal again they’d be going around in circles wouldn’t they? What would be the point of that? More valuable time wasted. <br>
We are tackling foxhunting AHEAD of far more important matters.
I went to a school where disabled kids were based. I’ve seen people look at those kids and insult them…because they are disabled. Stopping that kind of predjudice is 100 times more important that stopping a fox being hunted.
Foxhunting should be well down on the governments list of priorities…but it isn’t. As humans, we must makes sure we survive. We have to stop illness and we have to help people live together without wanting to kick each others heads in (ie: racism).
Surely we can debate moral issues like foxhunting when we’ve sorted out things that ARE far more important.
Yes we can debate foxhunting but not ahead of more important things.
