February 18, 2002 at 16:34 #4141
Just over the last few weekends I have been wondering is there a different mind set in flat and jump racing in terms of sucess.What I am pointing to are the relative dominante powers in each sector.For instance if Ballydoyle or Godolphin continued to dominate the big flat meetings weekend after weekend as Pipe and McCoy has done this year there would be crys of how unhealthy it is for a few to rule.This is very true but it somehow doesnt apply to Pipe? Is it the McCoy popularity factor?February 18, 2002 at 16:40 #97800roryParticipant
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I think if the Godolphin operation could win sponsored handicaps with horses they hadn’t just snaffled from someone else, they might engender a little more respect.February 18, 2002 at 16:45 #97801SmithyMember
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Presumably you’ve forgotten that Mr Pipe wins these races with horses he’s snaffled from France. :)February 18, 2002 at 16:46 #97803robgommMember
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The problem with Godolphin and Ballydoyle is that they devalue the Group One’s. Take a look at Summoner’s win at Ascot – the horse was a pacemaker and had the run of the race, yet took an expensive Group One.
O’Brien won so many Group One’s with 2yo’s. He has been known to enter 50% of a field at a 5day decs stage. How is this fair to the trainers with less cash behind them or less resources?
Can someone explain to me why we up the prizemoney for Group One’s year in year out? The money goes to Godolphin or Ballydoyle most of the time, and they don’t need all the money. If we lowered the prizmoney by say Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£20k in the Derby, and get the sponsers to spread it around a bit…there’d be more money in the lesser races and they’d be more competitve.
As things stand, the Ballydoyle/Godolphin tussle is dominating the Pattern race scene and making it a whole lot less enjoyable for those smaller time trainers trying to get their foot in the door. From a racing fans point of view…i get bored of O’Brien or bin Suroor winning so much. I’d prefer to see more competitve, open races.February 18, 2002 at 16:46 #97804
I dont really want to get into that side of it.<br>February 18, 2002 at 16:54 #97806SmithyMember
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Do you not think if they put more money into lesser races then Godolphin and Coolmore would win those as well.
I think your ideas are all very good in theory Rob, but is it not the way of the world that money goes to money. If Coolmore are prepared to enter half the field for a Group 1 2-y-o event good on them. After all, they’re contributing to the prize fund and they’re not certain to win are they?February 18, 2002 at 17:10 #97808johnny boyMember
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It is vital that the prize money for the top races in Britain continues to increase. <br>British prize money is poor enough as it is by comaparison with other countries. If it falls even further behind then we would see the best horses simply running elsewhere. <br>Indeed this is increasingly happening anyway as travelling horses becomes more viable. How many times will we see Johannesburg or Sakhee on a British racecourse this summer?February 18, 2002 at 17:20 #97809pengamonMember
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I think there’s a monetary reason why Tony McCoy is so popular at the moment.
Although he’s around -50 for all his rides, to a level stake, he seems to leave his best for saturday’s the one day of the week the general public really get stuck into their Racing.
In the dozen or so Saturday’s weve had racing since the Thomas Pink weekend I reckon he’s probably only been down to a level stake on 1 or possibly 2 Saturdays!February 18, 2002 at 19:05 #97811darioMember
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there is one differnce…pipe and mccoy dominate by being very good at what they do..ballydoyle and godolphin dominate by being very richFebruary 18, 2002 at 19:24 #97812
I’d be surprised if many people agreed that Kinane is not the equal of McCoy and certainly O’Brien is equal to Pipe?February 18, 2002 at 20:30 #97814marlingMember
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Perhaps a reason why the Pipe/McCoy dominance isn’t slagged off as being too boring is that you still get the feeling that the small outfit has a chance in the NH game. You might not be able to compete numerically with Pipe but a few thousand guineas (sorry euros!) wisely spent can still land you with a horse capable of challenging in the best races. On the flat these days, the best bloodstock all goes for 6+ figure sums and the top races increasingly seem a closed shop between the top 2 stables. Just hope that the recent escalation in NH bloodstock doesn’t have the same effect over the jumps.<br>February 18, 2002 at 20:39 #97815LUKEMember
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Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£240,000 sterling for Magnus.The Ballydoyle outfit is a million years ahead of that mickey mouse outfit that specialises in claimers and sellers.February 19, 2002 at 00:24 #97818SeagullMember
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Just from a betting point of view you would have won overall just putting level stakes on every bin surroor horse but lose overall on every pipey one last 3 seasons.There are many trends to follow with the pipe runners and one is avoid any race at fontwell except nh flat races (see another1/2 beaten Mon by the trainer who wins the money in non hand chases there to level stakes P. Nicholls is the man at Fontwell in any non hand chase and another 6/1 winner yesterday. It is not the first time Pipey has a four timer at Ascot he done it at the last meeting its trainers for couses .If you saw some nutter jumping up and down urging home Perange today by the winning line sorry but it was me!February 19, 2002 at 09:46 #97820robgommMember
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Johnny Boy – Ballydoyle/Godolphin don’t need to run Johannesburg and Sakhee over here. They can take them abroad and use their lesser lights in the Guineas and Juddmonte etc.
Smithy – "money goes to money" :racing is a competitive sport. Why should we let money go to money? By saying that, you are suggesting that we just let people dominate and forget the lesser trainers who have no right to win the bigger prizes because "money goes to money".
I disagree that it is good on them for entering half the fields in group one’s. They are lessening the competition and the Group One’s will end up carrying less prestige. It does get boring seeing O’Brien/bin Suroor battle it out – it might be fun for them, but for me it is dull seeing the money winning the money.
Why would a foreign trainer run a horse in a race where there are two or three pacemakers. This doesn’t make for a true run race, it makes for a stupidly fast run race. Front-runners who aren’t there to pacemake, have no chance.
Godolphin/Ballydoyle use pacemakers far too often.February 19, 2002 at 10:23 #97821ratpackMember
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I’d hardly call paying $4million for Shah Jehan professional when compared to the paltry sum of Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£240,000 paid for Magnus Luke (not that I view the latter as value).
Although, I would rate Kinane as the top jockey on the flat – there is no way he is held in the same esteem as McCoy over the jumps, and rightly so. And although O’Brien has achieved instantaneous success, he enjoys an unfair advantage vis a vis the quality of horses over his peers (with the notable exception of Godolphin). Pipe, although he has wealthy owners such as Johnson, has in no way got the same financial clout as Ballydoyle to the exclusion of others , and I therefore think his achievements are more laudable than that of O’Brien.
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