February 20, 2002 at 12:47 #97882
Istabraq?? No never heard of that one Aidan.
I was referring to the time when he was only training national hunt horses, and not only 1 good one as is the case nowadays. And yes O’Brien did overrace his horses in a similar means that Pipe does these days, to the detriment of a good horse like Idiot’s Venture. I didn’t say that he does so now – on the contrary.
I seem to be repeating myself, but the main argument I’m trying to make is that I feel Pipe does better with what he has than does O’Brien. I still think O’Brien is a top class trainer.February 20, 2002 at 12:56 #97884LUKEMember
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Thats very good of you Ratpack.February 20, 2002 at 12:57 #97885
Fascinated you used Idiots Venture as an example of a horse who was over raced.He certainly didnt show it,indeed at the time he was fatally injured it could be argued that he was in the form of his life………….just 4 races ago he had failed my the smallest of margins to win the Galway plate carrying top weight.After that run in Galway he ran a couple of days later and won.I previously remember that he ran twice at one Punchestown festival running 3rd to Klairon Davis then winning a valuable race next time.I dont see how a horse can be over raced if he continues to win.Is Limestone Lad overraced?February 20, 2002 at 13:01 #97886jjimpsMember
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Pipe and O’Brien operate in totally different worlds. Of course MP races his horses more, remember he is operating on behalf of an owner and in the vast majority of cases the only way to get any sort of return on your investment in an average NH horse is to send it to MP and watch it win 6 in a row !!
O’Brien is training horses to enhance their value at stud not win races because that is what his owners require sometimes of course they are the same thing but not alwaysFebruary 20, 2002 at 13:07 #97888prince regentMember
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(Edited by prince regent at 1:08 pm on Feb. 20, 2002)February 20, 2002 at 13:14 #97891THE ROOKMember
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Could you explain why Magnus is a bad buy?
He was the third best hurdler in France,<br>He has already won connections a Grade 2 hurdle (pocketing Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£40,000) ?. <br>Only Istabraq, and Valiaramix are rated higher than him in the Champion hurdle lineup, which he is still in (recognition of his record in France),<br>He is in residence with one of the few trainers who sends horses abroad, so even if Magnus failed over here (I dont expect him to), he would farm plenty of race overseas.
I can see the logic in why connections went to Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£340,000 to purchase Magnus … you may wish to elaborate on where connections went wrong<br> Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â <br>As for Cyfor Malta, you’ve been talking off his demise for at least the last three years, and yet he keeps coming back to prove you wrong. I dont detreminbe Greatness with Gold Cup wins, so even if Cyfor Malta never won a Gold Cup, its difficult to suggest he wasnt very useful "on his day".
On your point specifcally, Cyfor Malta has twice run badly on heavy ground in the Pillar Chase, having won the race on faster ground …. you point is what exactly? Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
(Edited by THE ROOK at 1:15 pm on Feb. 20, 2002)February 20, 2002 at 13:20 #97892
"Cyfor Malta keeps coming back to prove you wrong" As far as I can see Cyfor Malta was a big disappointment last time and his other run this year was hardly Gold Cup standard albeit he was coming back from a break.Deserves to take his chance in an open Gold Cup field though.<br> As for Magnus he certainly has considerable ability but is he or indeed any National Hunt horse worth that amount of money?I think that is what look is getting at…………….the horse would need to win a few big races every season to recover the money but while he might do this whats for certain is the owner will be paying training,food,vets fees etc while in training.February 20, 2002 at 13:41 #97894
Glad to hear that you’re fascinated by my example of Idiot’s Venture being overraced. "I don’t see how a horse can be overraced if he continues to win". Well 3 wins from 17 starts in the course of 11 months I wouldn’t call a brilliant strike rate. And what was the upshot of this incredible strike rate? He went lame and was put down.
On the other hand horses like Limestone Lad thrive on racing, and do keep winning which is perfectly acceptable. So no he is not overraced.
I hope this sets your mind at ease Aidan.February 20, 2002 at 13:46 #97895
I phrased it wrong ratpack, the horse was placed in nearly all his runs except when he fell.But come on if O’brien over raced all his horses name a few more except this one………as for Pipe……………Champleve,Or Royal,the novice he ran over National style fences that was killed etc etc etcFebruary 20, 2002 at 14:01 #97896
I’m not denying that Pipe doesn’t do the same. I know he does, and you are perfectly right in your afore mentioned examples. My original point on this thread seems to have lost its direction, and I’ve reiterated it enough times so I’ll leave it at that.February 20, 2002 at 15:02 #97898LUKEMember
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Rook -Magnus was purchased to win races on this side of the channel which he has failed to do yet.The fact that he has been entered up over distances between 2 miles and the 3 and a quarter mile Long Walk Hurdle suggests they don’t know what to do with the horse.<br>Cyfor Malta has won a single race since I started slagging him off ,a handicap at Newbury where he was given every chance at the weights and the second seemed to have other things on his mind.Hardly earth shattering stuff is it.Get back to me when he wins a race of note.<br>By the way I see you were unable to answer my points about Japhets defeat.February 20, 2002 at 21:07 #97899THE ROOKMember
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Luke – I’ve answered your points on Japhet on the original thread
On your other points – actually Magnus was purchased to win races, David Johnson has made that clear. Even he is quick to realise that there are several alternatives open to the horse.
Luke as I’ve stated before, that arent many races in France over 3miles, so I can understand why they arent certain (2m4f maybe his best trip at present though he’d definitely get 3miles in time)
as for your last comment re cyfor Malta
"Cyfor Malta has won a single race since I started slagging him off, a handicap at Newbury where he was given every chance at the weights and the second seemed to have other things on his mind.Hardly earth shattering stuff is it. Get back to me when he wins a race of note. "
What a strange comment.
He’s only run in two races, and there was plenty to like about the way he won that day … in any case you stated that he’d never win again …. he has.
Oh …. if he does win a "race of note" … expect a call:biggrin:
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