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Disparity?

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  • #97823
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    Rob, whether you like it or not that is the reality. In the 70’s it was Nelson Bunker Hunt and the initial Coolmore/Sangster mob who had the money and the best horses, the Arabs got involved in the 80’s and now the new style Coolmore outfit with Mr Tabor involved.

    I don’t see how they are lessening the competition by making mass entries – it is surely up to other owners/trainers to take them on. The Racing Post Trophy is a prime example – were there really so few decent 2-y-o milers around that the field should have been so small. Coolmore finished 1-2 with horses that wouldn’t be at the top of their pecking order but surely someone somewhere must have had a horse to take them on with. It seems to me that there is a reluctance to run good horses that might get beaten – but isn’t that what sport is all about. One thing you can’t accuse Godolphin or to a lesser extent Coolmore of is pampering there horses – they run them to win and if they have more than one capable of winning then they run them both. If no-one wants to take them on I don’t see what they are doing wrong. The likes of Cecil, Dunlop and Stoute have enough firepower at their disposal to challenge them, so why is it left to the Meehans and the Bells of this world to take on?

    Don’t forget the Thoroughbred Corporation also spend a lot of money on bloodstock, but if you don’t spend it wisely (Oath excepted) you don’t enjoy the success.

    As to your point about pacemakers, if they do a proper job it doesn’t make for a stupidly run race. And I think you’ll find that Dick Hern was using pacemakers before Aidan O’Brien was born.

    #97826
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    Firstly, horse racing is a sport. It is competitve. Godolphin/Ballydoyle take the money in the big races, because they have the money in the first place. That is not how racing should work. The money should be spread around so lesser stables can have a stab at races that suit there horses, and races in which the big stables won’t be able to take much of a hand in.

    How can Ballydoyle/Godolphin be taken on? They have masses of GOOD quality horses. The Stoute’s of this world don’t have 100’s of regally bred horses at their disposal.

    You’ll find that Ballydoyle will enter one of their better one’s in the Group One decs. Other trainers will withdraw their entries because they don’t want to take on O’Brien’s best horses and O’Brien will take out his best horse, leaving the race between several of his and a Godophin nothing horse along with a couple in their for the 4th/5th prizemoney.

    The reason trainers don’t want to take on Ballydoyle or Godolphin’s best at 2yo’s? Because they don’t want to knacker their horse at 3. They only have that one horse (who they may believe is top class) and Ballydoyle/Godolphin have plenty more where one good one comes from.

    The Meehan’s and Bell’s aren’t there to try to beat the Godolphin/Ballydoyle horses – they are there for a share of the prizemoney.

    Is O’Brien taking on himself really that interesting? The Racing Post trophy was just him against him really! Uncompetitive stuff and who knows where they are on the pecking order…they could improve and be number one or they could be average group one horses.

    Summoner didn’t do a proper job did he? He won. He wasn’t meant to win. Noverre was meant to win according to Godolphin. Now, tell me how a horse beaten in a listed race can suddenly go on and win a Group One. Because it had the run of the race…if Godolphin hadn’t used a pacemaker, Noverre probably would have won. Look at the Eclipse, that was run at a ridiculous pace and we ended up having a Group one with the first 4 a length apart!!

    The problem with pacemakers is that we don’t get one of them, we sometimes get two or three – and they go to fast. Pacemakers aren’t put in a race to win it – they are put in to ensure a true pace and give the stables other horse an enhanced chance of winning. And if a horse isn’t put in a race to win….what is it? First word begins with N…..<br>

    #97829
    LUKE
    Member
    • Total Posts 271

    Rob I think you should chill out a little bit.Summoner was trying at Ascot as was Maroof in the same race previously.Opening Verse very nearly gave Nashwan the slip in the Eclipse some years ago.If you cant accept pacemakers throwing an occasional surprise then you should take up something else-like knitting.<br>You haven’t addressed the issue of Dick Hern running pacemakers.He certainly did it in the race of the century Grundy /Bustino where he ran two pacemakers which I am also sure he did when Petoski attempted to win a second King George.It was a perfectly legitimate tactic to make it a true run race and a test of stamina.

    #97831
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    Don’t get me wrong – I find the Coolmore domiantion as boring as the next man, but if people aren’t prepared to try and beat them then it is a vicious circle.

    The Dewhurst Stakes has always been the most prestigious 2-y-o race in the Calendar yet this season Coolmore finish 1-2-3. Surely, and correct me if I am wrong, there shopuld have been more than 4 other horses capable of taking on O’Brien’s quintet. Where were Mark Johnston’s representatives? He has a good set of 2-y-o’s and likes nothing more than a whinge about prize money. Could one of his stars not have managed fourth place and the ten grand that would have followed.

    The big races should feature the best horses and therefore the most money. If the best horses are owned by only two superpowers then so be it. At least in America they take each other on and if they are beaten by a better horse they take it on the chin.

    And as for "The Stoute’s of this world don’t have 100’s of regally bred horses at their disposal. " Absolute rubbish – that is exactly what Stoute has at his disposal. The fact that he chooses to campaign them less agrressively than O’Brien – who needs 2-y-o winners to boost the stud values – is the problem. But when you see the success of Pilsudski, Singspiel, Kalanisi and compare it to the one-season wonders of Coolmore, it illustrates the difference in what people want out of racing.

    #97833
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    Spot on Luke – Vouchsafe and Boldden if memory serves were Petoski’s pacemakers. But I was only young so that may be wrong!

    #97835
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    So what if Dick Hern was using pacemakers before O’Brien was born? I’m interested in the use of pacemakers now, and at anyrate, just because they were used back then doesn’t make anymore right or wrong.

    So Stoute has 100’s and 100’s of well-bred 2yo’s pouring onto his books from his own stud does he?

    Ballydoyle and Godolphin have many more resources compared to any other operation in Britain and Ireland.

    I imagine Mark Johnston didn’t want to put one of his 2yo’s up against three of O’Brien’s. As i said, O’Brien entered so many and didn’t make his running plans clear. Others pulled out because they weren’t interested in facing an O’Brien horse that may or may not be top grade. I’m not sure Mark Johnston has ever been interested in running for 4th placed prize money.

    Good point about the Pilsudski, Singspiel and Kalanisi’s. Stoute likes to keep a horse going. A racehorse shouldn’t be in operation for its 2yo’s and 3yo years. By the time horses like Galileo retire…they aren’t even fully mature!!

    Luke, pacemakers can throw up the occasional surprise all they like. But maybe (since they are going out to make the pace and not win) they should have no-odds placed on them. We could have "betting without the pacemaker" or something like that.

    If the Godolphin/Ballydoyle horses are so good, why do they need pacemakers?

    Did Galileo have a pacemaker in the Derby? Nope…and he won it. He won on his own merit rather than have one of his own stablemates set the race up for him.

    #97838
    LUKE
    Member
    • Total Posts 271

    Rob presumably you disagree with stable second strings winning.Its a pity you are unaware of the history and tradition of the sport of kings.

    #97841
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    Is a stable second string the same as a pacemaker? Do all stable second strings go quickly early on?

    What I disagree with are horses sent out to lose. That is what pacemakers (IN GENERAL) are sent out to do. Make the running at a decent pace, then drop away. Some jockeys (using their brains) decide they’ll take the first prized pot by winning tactically. Nothing wrong with that, makes the yard who have been jabbering on about their other stable horse look a bit silly though.

    Would you say Summoner is a geniune Group One horse?

    #97843
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    Roger Charlton always thought so and I would respect his judgement.

    Maybe we’ll get chance to see next season.<br>

    (Edited by Smithy at 3:15 pm on Feb. 19, 2002)

    #97844
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    When your talking about Ballydoyle dominance lets get our facts straight.Last year was  a FREAK year for them,it was a world record for christ sake so lets not go saying it happens all the time.<br>         Secondly,Ratpack,even when O’Brien was in Piltown training National Hunt horses he was doing exactly the same in Ireland as Pipe is doing in England.He didnt have the Johnsons like Pipe has yet he smashed EVERY single Irish record around in National Hunt Racing over here.<br>                         I dont believe it’s fair to blame O’Brien for leaving racing plans late…………….thats what has got him here today.Perhaps the reason he runs so many in the race is because he knows nothing will take him on.If other trainers at least attempted to show some sort of resistance against maybe it would change.Sure its the same in England over the jumps as well.Huge amounts of prize money in the races but 3-2 runners is that O’Brien’s fault too?<br>                                   As for prize money I really do think that is a problem in England.Yes more money is going into the big races over here but also more valuable auction races are opening up here and there is plenty of money in the handicapps and listed races.<br>        Sometimes people have to stop whining and take a stand themselves.

    #97846
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    There’s plenty of money in the top jumps races over here…but it doesn’t improve field sizes. Ascot have had this problem, they put money into races but the turnout is still small…so there’s more to it than prizemoney in some cases, although what i don’t know.

    Smithy – it’d be very nice to see if Summoner really was Group One level. Whatever Roger Charlton has said, the horse still must prove it on course when things aren’t so cosily in his favour (as a forum member spotted before the race and put up Summoner as a MAX.)

    There’s no doubting O’Brien’s ability as a trainer. He’s very good but I prefer the Milton Bradley’s of this world who do lots with little. <br>O’Brien deserves credit for last year’s achievment for sure.

    I don’t see why O’Brien has to enter so many horses into a Group One. Can he not just select a few to enter and then narrow it down. Perhaps he just has so many horses he doesn’t know what to do with them all.

    Stoute, Cecil etc don’t really seem bothered about competing with O’Brien. Godolphin/Ballydoyle will probably continue to battle it out next year as the other trainers don’t seem to realise that if they don’t start putting a strong team together, they’ll never get a shot in as Ballydoyle and Godolphin will just be too strong.

    #97847
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    Too be honest how can Stoute and Cecil simply not "be bothered" to compete with O’Brien and Godolphin??!!!What are they bloody paid alot of money to do??!!<br>        Rob you contradict yourself…………….first you state O’Brien’s multi entry system and the money behind him for the reason of small fields.Yet over jumps it just put down to one of those things??Perhaps it’s just happening in both.

    #97850
    ratpack
    Member
    • Total Posts 96

    Aidan

    I am well aware of APOB’s record as a NH trainer and that he performed creditably when he broke the NH record.

    My point was, if you bothered to read it, was whether himself and Kinane should be compared as the equal to Pipe and McCoy. I opined that they shouldn’t. How long did he persevere with NH though with moderate NH horses?? Not very long at all. How long has MC Pipe?? As long as I can remember he has been winning sellers in Fakenham during the summer and running up sequences with the most moderate of animals.

    I think this is a more commendable achievement than O’Brien winning classics with multi million dollar purchases. Anything that isn’t any use, he doesn’t have to persevere with – thats my point. It gets sold off to Luke Comer or somewhere in Japan.

    You obviously have a soft spot for the Ballydoyle team but don’t try and depict that he conquered all before him in the NH sphere, and therefore has nothing to prove in that regard. He did well with ordinary horses but his only good horse, Idiots Venture, he ran into the ground, so I don’t think this puts him on some higher moral ground than Pipe.

    #97853
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    Yep, on the flat i believe O’Brien/bin Suroor’s multiple entries make the racing less interesting than it should be in pattern events and they both help create smaller fields by scaring off other runners.

    Over the jumps i don’t know what it is – there’s money in the pot and they still don’t race! Don’t think it is the same on the flat – it is by no means O’Brien or Godolphin’s fault over the jumps – i can only imagine that there aren’t that many good jumps horses about to run in the better jump races nowadays…it is often you see a small field seller.

    When I say "not bothered" i mean that they aren’t interested in piling up entries in races and aren’t interested in throwing their 2yo’s in against O’Brien’s.

    Look at Golan, his one run as a 2yo? At Chepstow in a maiden.

    #97854
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    You pick one extreme example of Golan but sure the year before King’s Best was aggressively campaigned.The name of this years 1000Guineas winner slips my mind but from memory she ran a few times at two.And Lahan the same before.

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