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Disparity?

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  • #97855
    johnny boy
    Member
    • Total Posts 30

    Ratpack,

    Do you think if Pipe did concentrate on the flat that anyone would send him a top class fragile flat horse with a potential stud value of millions so that he could put it through his training regime?

    #97856
    LUKE
    Member
    • Total Posts 271

    Superb point Johnny boy.Robgomm it sound like you are accusing APOB of bring too good at his job.Another point was Summoner sent out to lose.

    #97858
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    They don’t have to be agressively campaigned Aidan – Lahan had a couple of runs, one in a Redcar maiden and one in the Rockfel – both wins.

    Ameerat had three runs (her final one was 6th in the Rockfel…mental note, check this years Rockfel).

    King’s Best ran in the Dewhurst and was last of 5 with O’Brien getting 2nd and 3rd with 14/1 shots.

    Excuse me…i just feel the need to wade through the 1000/2000 Guineas trials for the past 10 years…

    Sorry Luke, didn’t spot your post until posting mine – Summoner sure wasn’t sent out to beat Noverre…that was all Richard Hills’ work, that i’m sure of.

    (Edited by robgomm at 4:41 pm on Feb. 19, 2002)

    #97859
    ratpack
    Member
    • Total Posts 96

    Why does it have to be fragile Johnny Boy?? Are u saying that all of APOB’s horses are fragile and that he is a master at training them??

    How can u draw such an analaogy when he’s never been given the opportunity to train such talented horses. The exact same could have been said of APOB when he was training jumpers.

    Any time Pipe has received a top class animal he hasn;t run it into the ground. He has looked after it with great care e.g. Carvills Hill, Cyfor Malta.

    My point was that Pipe does better with what he has than does O’Brien. I’ve no affinity or anything against either trainer. It’s just an observation.

    #97863
    LUKE
    Member
    • Total Posts 271

    And why doesn’t Pipe get the chance to train Derby winners.APOB and Michael Dickinson were headhunted.

    #97865
    johnny boy
    Member
    • Total Posts 30

    Ratpack,

    Carvill’s Hill (only four or five runs for Pipe) & Cyfor Malta (total of three years off the course with injuries) were not run into the ground on the racecourse but both broke down badly. What about Make A Stand? He had one stellar season but then was a complete burn out.<br>Pipe trains his horses differently to anyone else. He gives them a much harder time at home, which is why his handicappers and lower grade horses improve so much when they go to him. All horses are, however, fragile and you can only go to the well so often, before the well runs dry.<br>I can think of very few Martin Pipe trained horses that have run in three consecutive jump seasons against dozens of one season wonders who are never heard of again.<br>If you had a 5 year old who you thought a possible gold cup horse in 2 to 3 years time, would you send it to Martin Pipe?

    (Edited by johnny boy at 5:59 pm on Feb. 19, 2002)

    #97866
    ratpack
    Member
    • Total Posts 96

    Johnny Boy

    I don’t know what point you’re trying to make, but the answer to you’re question is no, no way in fact, would I send a potential Gold Cup contender to Pipe.

    As I have repeatedly emphasised, although no-one seems to be listening, I believe Pipe does better with what he has than O’Brien does with what he has. The issue here isn;t the longetivity of horses shelf life but rather the capability of both Pipe and O’Brien to produce winners with what resources they respectively possess. It’s patently obvious that Pipe trains moderate horses to the point of early burnout. This crime you seem to accuse Pipe of was committed by O’Brien when he trained jumpers, as I have mentioned already.

    #97868
    robridge
    Member
    • Total Posts 1

    Although I am not qualified to comment on the flat issues (I hibernate in the summer) I will say this about M Pipe: he is meticulous in placing his horses is the right races and at the right time — his success stems not so much from having a yard full of top quality horses but from consistently placing often mediocre horses where they will perform to their best. It also has to be said that horses that don’t perform to his high standards are not encouraged to stay. I have nothing but admiration for Martin Pipe — his methods have transformed the training of NH horses.  That said I wouldn’t have a horse in training with him, unless I thought it had the potential to be top class.

    Roger

    #97869
    rory
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2685

    Trying desperately to get back to the original intention of this thread, what we should ask is what do we expect from racing?

    Some very strange ideas have been expressed here regarding the methods employed by the top trainers in both spheres.

    [*]Aidan O’Brien has been less successful with what he has been given than Martin Pipe – we might as well say that Michaelangelo wasn’t much cop compared to Da Vinci; the success both have achieved cannot be quibbled at, whatever the setting.  They can only be compared to their peers, and both emerge smelling of roses.

    [*]Ballydoyle/Godolphin make racing less interesting through multiple entries – this would be plausible if they only ran one horse from the top echelon in a group one, thereby diminishing the competitive element of the race.

    That both not only enter but run all the horses they deem fit to do themselves justice on the day reflects with credit on their respective organisations. Personally, when I watch a group race, I’m looking to view great horses, not the colours worn by the jockeys.  Someone claimed that O’Brien competed against himself in the (Dewhurst and) Racing Post Trophy, by saddling the first 3.  This astounds me;  would the race have been better if he had removed two horses? Absolutely not – the race was about the horses, not whether they wore royal blue, dark blue or pink.  Any trainer who is "frightened" of running a live contender in a group one race should have his licence revoked!

    There was justifiable concern 10-15 years ago that small trainers in the North would be unable to win maiden races with their horses, due to the proliferation of Arab owned horses campaigned nationwide to win such uncompetitive heats.  Such a fear now seems faintly ridiculous, especially with the advent of the artificial surfaces, and the low grade handicaps which fill their cards.  That anyone should make the same claim regarding the chances of Sir Michael Stoute, Henry Cecil et al winning pattern races is laughable in the extreme.

    (Edited by rory at 10:31 pm on Feb. 19, 2002)

    #97871
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    The fact that O’Brien saddled 1-2-3 in the Dewhurst was not the problem – the fact that no one was prepared to take him on is what disturbs me as there are plenty of good two-year-olds out there – certainly better than Where Or When who managed fourth. Shouldn’t a race of that prestige be able to attract more than four runners from outside the Coolmore circus.

    #97874
    robgomm
    Member
    • Total Posts 224

    Spot on Smithy, a race like the Dewhurst should definately have more runners in from different trainers – the problems may be these: 1) People don’t want to race against 3 or 4 Coolmore horses (pacemakers etc) 2) there’s something wrong in the breeding industry? Maybe not enough good class 2yo’s are getting to trainers other than O’Brien/bin Suroor and some of the Newmarket trainers.

    Rory, Godolphin and Coolmore make things less interesting when they pile up the entries and fight a race out for themselves. Like i’ve said, it may be possible that other trainers don’t want to go up against Coolmore/Godolphin horses that may or may not be top class. Maybe they want to save their younger horss for a 3yo campaign whilst Godolphin/Coolmore don’t really need to. If their main hope (for say the Guineas) isn’t up to running then they must have at least 3 more they could choose from.

    The one other things that concerned be about last season was that Galileo ran in the Breeders’ Cup. We all know he wasn’t bred for the surface (unlike Giant’s Causeway) and one workout at Southwell isn’t enough to make sure Galileo would have handled the dirt in America. Why did they run him? Publicity? Did they really think he could have won? Was it O’Brien’s choice or would the choice have been made for him by Galileo’s owners?

    Regarding Martin Pipe – i’m not sure i’d send a potential Gold Cup horse to him. I’d probably send a potential Gold Cup horse (or Cheltenham horse) to Noel Chance as he seems to know how to get one ready for the festival as he’s shown with Mr Mulligan and Looks Like Trouble (Mr Mulligan 2nd RSA Chase, LLT 1st RSA chase, Mulligan and LLT 1st Gold Cup).

    #97875
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    Coolmore had nothing to lose by running Galileo in the Classic – as a stallion prospect he has everything being the first Derby winning son of Sadler’s Wells. Had he won the Classic – very unlikely but not impossible – they could have doubled his fee. Nice position to be in really.

    With regard to the Dewhurst – surely the presence of pacemakers wouldn’t put anyone off. I think that there must be a few trainers who rue not running in the race. Landseer’s proximity to the winner suggests that Sir George Turner could have won it. Tenuous I know but I don’t think that any of the first three home will prove to be top-class and it does seems a wasted opportunity. A look back through the recent Dewhurst’s highlights the number of lower-grade Coolmore performers who have managed a place in the great race. Who can forget Zentsov Street, Brahms and Impressionist?

    #97878
    THE ROOK
    Member
    • Total Posts 21

    Isnt the important factor hear, that the trainers mentioned are maticulous at  their placement of their horses, be it Group races on the flat or in a seller over jumps.

    I dont see the problem with that at all, are you suggesting that these trainers are any more "crafty" than the trainers who daily enter more than one horse in a race …. of course they’re not, thats what they’re paid to do by their owners.

    Another thing, ratpack  you made comments about Pipes training methods.

    His horses are regularly schooled;<br>They are raced at the peak of their fitness, they run as straight as they can be got, and not "half fit" as the trainer of the champion hurdler dares suggest!!!  

    Yes he does buy horses out of sellers, and place them to win, for which they are penalised. Even if the rate of progression is fast (according to the handicapper). He is prepared to still find opprtunities, even if that means dropping a horse into selling, or as has been the case for at least ten years, run some of them in point to points. What’s wrong with that?

    I bet you he has got as much pleasure recently out of getting wins out of Nouveau Cheval, Jurancon II, and Doukash, as he does Cyfor Malta, (who he gave the time to come back from a leg injury, when the horse could have back far sooner than he did), Tresor De Mai, (who up until this year wasnt well handicapped, yet has bagged a Grade 1 chase), and Valiaramix.

    He’s a good buyer of bloodstock, particularly french and german bloodstock, for which he still has one of the best records around…. He watches as much racing as he can and it pays off

    He paid £15,000 guineas for Hernandita, whose won two races, yet Nicky Henderson paid £100,000 for the horse who beat her when they last met on the flat Lord Joshua …. wasnt particularly impressive on his hurdling debut was he ?!!!.

    Time will tell whether £100,000 was worthy of Londoner, or £340,000 Magnus…. the point is that I can see the logic both purchases (especially Magnus)

    He gets things wrong, which is why Stormez finally got upped in distance, which is what they should have done all along, and why he does everything at home to calm  Rodock down, (including spacing out his runs and putting a mirror in the stable) because he knows the horse frets and trying to give the horse every opportunity to show his ability on the racecourse

    That is how you get every ounce of commitment from your horse … not powering it up the gallop every day.<br>

    #97879
    LUKE
    Member
    • Total Posts 271

    At £340,000 Magnus was the worst buy since Snaafi Dancer.<br>Pipe did attempt to bring back Cyfor Malta in early 2001 when he was badly hammered at Cheltenham.

    #97880
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    "He did well with ordinary horses but his only good horse, Idiots Venture, he ran into the ground, so I don’t think this puts him on some higher moral ground than Pipe"………………Idiot’s Venture Aidan O’Brien’s best National Hunt horse???????Where would you race Istabraq Ratpack?!!!!!And if your going to argue that Pipe is the better trainer etc than O’Brien your arguement that O’Brien over races his horses is humerous considering time and time again Pipe has burnt his horses out.<br>                  

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