[KINGFISHER]

That’s funny Eddie, I was watching the Kings Gambit race and thinking about the whip debate.

All the players in that race were under the cosh and it is a matter of subjective judgement (and impossible to tell in all reality) exactly how much each was finding, or not, for it.

I know some people regard a driving finish, whips flying, as an exciting component of racing. I am all for exciting finishes, but you’d have them hands and heels just the same. You don’t need to whip them for that.

Why would you have less exciting finishes with no whips?

There has only ever been one jockey who could ride a hands and heels finish with impact and thats Willie Carson,nobody was more powerful than him but when he resorted to the whip it too had its effect and Willie knew it would encourage the last ounce of effort from his mount,he was a great jockey for only using his whip to do just that.Watch the videos of

Troy

Derby,

Sun Princess

Oaks,

Petoski

King George and then the difference to

Nashwan

, 2000gns and Derby.Willie Carson respected his horses regarding the use of the whip imo.

[KINGFISHER]

Saturday 23rd

Musselburgh 3.05 Rastaban

David you obviously want to be taken seriously as a bit of a tipster as trying to run a profitable tipping thread is the quickest way to lose any credibility you may have earned when you post consistent losers.What was it that made you fancy

Winniepeg

in the 5.30 at Nottingham? this 3yo had only ever ran 3 times in its life and all 3 races were on Kemptons all weather surface and rated 62 kind of tells you its going to be average at best,its always nice to know the thinking behind a tipsters selection too.

[KINGFISHER]

Wish it was just £1 per point for that race Kingfisher.

The amount of money a point is worth does not change.

Thanks for clearing that up Ginger,obviously just a typo error,what still intrigues me though is the amount of points you are prepared to wager in one race,i have seen you betting between 70 and 90 points regularly per race,bearing in mind the average Points tipster suggests a 1 point stake as an average wager to a maximum 5 points wager for something they rate as a good thing.If as you say one point is more than a pound but you didn’t deny that it could be up to £10,that would suggest you are prepared to wager up to £800 in a race on possibly 5 selections at times,keep up the good work,you are a good read.

[KINGFISHER]

Wish it was just £1 per point for that race Kingfisher.

I am happy enough with my days work.

Fair play to you Ginger,but i’m confused How can you bet in points that ‘fluctuate’,if as you say your 63 points are not to a level stake then what is the value of a point?
I could imagine that for arguements sake your points for Dick Turpins race were £10 a point then and you have lost £630,your points for Kings Gambits race could have been only £2 a point and you have won £416 less the 13 points on Afsare leaves a profit on the race of £390 but your profit on the day is still 100 points even though you could have lost £250 of real money! Please explain.

[KINGFISHER]

3:45 Sandown
45 points @ 9/2 (WH bog) Music Show
11 points @ 4.9/1 (betfair) Cityscape
7 points @ 8.4/1 (betfair) Dream Eater

Backing 3 horses in a 5 horse race may seem a bit strange. But I make the race:

Dick Turpin 42% 11/8
Music Show 23.5% 100/30
Cityscape 21% 4/1
Dream Eater 13.25% 13/2
Highland Knight 0.25% 400/1

Don’t see why Dick Turpin should be so far in front of the rest.

For someone who makes a horse have virtually twice as much chance as anything else in the race i find it somewhat surprising,no shocking that you are prepared to speculate 63 points against it,even if one point equates to a pound its still seems more than a bit of a strange philosophy imo.

edit. well done with Kings Gambit though!

[KINGFISHER]

Kingfisher, I don’t think that races are as competitive as they might be at Southwell because of the prize money. Corruption is too hard a word. There are no needlemen at Southwell, but there are plenty of trainers with the needle.

Apologies for long post.

Dont apologise for an excellent post,it explains your position Max,i like your play on words too.

[KINGFISHER]

I’ve seen stuff at Southwell this winter that isn’t sport. It’s like something I’ve never seen before, something completely new. Something brazen

No Max,you have just finally woken up and can smell the coffee at last.Southwells All weather racing has always been the best place in the country for skullduggery and has been for years,closely followed by Wolverhampton and Lingfield.I have always praised the Mugs that waste money on it as it keeps the Levy topped up for those that concentrate on quality racing.This thread tells us nothing we dont already know and yet some on here seem genuinely surprised that horse racing at the lowest level is corrupt.

[KINGFISHER]

:? ………If that was the case and the ref is bent which seems to be what you are insinuating then surely he would of sent the keeper off when he conceded the penalty?

Nath,give Mr Wilson a chance,i have read this guys posts for a couple of years now and he’s good,he’s very good…with numbers.

[KINGFISHER]

I should add that I believe horses are intelligent. But that it is an intelligence based on instinct and being and not in any way the kind of reasoning intelligence you might associate with humans.

AP McCoy would dissagree with the above when he rides

Albertas Run

,he has made up Tonys mind for him on several occasions!

[KINGFISHER]

Unlike some, I have no truck with the idea that horses race ‘because they love it’. That’s nonsense. Horses have no view on it. They’re horses. They don’t ‘love it’. Nor do they hate it. Ballabriggs chomping on a carrot in his box last Sunday will be stiff and tired but he’ll have no concept whatsoever of having run in the Grand National never mind winning it and he’ll have no resentment at all towards Jason Maguire next time that man is legged up on board him. Such imagined feelings are insulting both to our intelligence and the natural dignity of these animals.

For someone who is recognised as an authority of racing knowledge and an articulate one at that and may i add a superb racing broadcaster and interviewer,the above paragraph is a complete load of tosh.Of course horses have feelings,you try getting near an abused one and yes some horses love racing so much they even come out of retirement just because they miss it,its also common knowledge that a horses confidence can be affected when he takes a bad fall,they are sensitive creatures just like us and have their own personalities just like we have,they even recognise a pecking order within a herd and that can be seen within racing stables,Tartan Bearer used to always ‘bully’ Conduit until he beat him and he was a changed horse afterwards,your comments Sean are insulting to the horse and to your own intelligence.

[KINGFISHER]

Sure some of the people who used to be here are missed, personally I found The Ante Post King and Cheltenham Specialist to be two extremely knowledgeable posters, both exceptional judges who know what it takes to win at this game.

Cheltenham Specialist

was the World Champion Tipster on here ‘Horsey’ but never got the recognition he deserved,that Anti poo King fellow was just a complete D*ck.

Imperial Call

would give him a run for his money dont you think?

[KINGFISHER]

Whatever rocks your boat OSS. You can have passion without it degenerating in to a bun fight. Much prefer reading Drone and Pinza debating, rather than myself, Reet, Fist and TAPK.

Did try and make a debate in the Lounge about God and co, but because I am someone who "does not understand" (athiest), it was apparently not worth believers wasting their precious energy by answering. As is their perogative.

Ginger,perhaps your ‘Values’ were out of your depth discussing God on a racing forum,you stick to vote rigging,you athiest you!

[KINGFISHER]

Excellent stuff Imperial,a truly outstanding performance,the Grey made the rest of the field look pedestrian but Big Bucks made Grand Cru’s look the same,some horse.Confidence is King,keep up the good work.

[KINGFISHER]

Good Luck Imperial,there"s only a few on here i would put money on making a profit at this game.You are one of them! No Pressure!

A Grand on

Big Bucks

at 4/7 eh Imperial! You are a braver man than me.If the rain comes and there’s a bit of cut this course will suit

Grand Cru’s

better than the favourite i reckon.You have built yourself a nice little platform with disciplined wagers,i hope the weight of ‘Big Bucks’ on it doesn’t cause it to collapse!

[KINGFISHER]

Since 2003,every time The Lincoln has been run at Doncaster it has been won by a 4yo,for this stat to continue then either

Taqleed

,

Gunner Lindley

,

Fremont

, or

Our Joe Mac

has to be victorious.From the above 4 only

Taqleed

could be in the mould of "Streams of Gold","Expresso Star" and "Penitent" in that they are all lightly raced 4yo"s with winning form as 3yo"s.

Fremont

would be my dark horse of the race as his 3yo campaign didn"t show his true potential.Of the others both Dandys

Al Muheer

and particularly

Dream Lodge

at 48"s on the machine have serious claims from a handicapping perspective.

[KINGFISHER]

Had it been any other race,Jamie Codd would have kept the ride but this is the Greatest race in the world where experience counts for everything and Paul Carberry and Backstage will make the perfect team,he"s had the leg up before msercs.

[KINGFISHER]

Anyway, it’s flat racing so it’s relatively easy (compared with Cheltenham) to work out the winner should be Twice Over. He has the joint highest rating, has been prepared early and is already in form.

You make it sound all too simple Kasp,should Twice Over prevail it will confirm the brilliance of Zenyatta and the shoulda,coulda wouldas of the great mare.Victory for King Henry playing away from home on the Sheikhs home ground would be sweet but i have a sneaky feeling this

Poets Voice

is going to be a tough nut to crack,it would have been a case of just turning up for the Duty Free as it was his for the taking but connections have always had a soft spot for this Grandson of the majestic Dubai Millenium and i have always thought this race was a long term plan.Just remember Kasp on a collateral form line through Rip Van Winkle,Poets Voice on his day is on a par with Twice Over,the fact that he is 5 times the price makes him appeal even the more,home advantage and i can see a strong case to take the 10/1.Of course this fellow has to settle early as he is notorious for running too free as he did in the Champion stakes,if Frankie keeps a tight hold of him and delivers him very late he will give Twice Over a run for his money!

[Author]

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