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Anthony,
The main reason I want a pari-mutuel system is that I hate betting. If I never had a bet again, it would be too soon. I don’t like losing and I don’t like giving hard earned money to bookmakers and worse, anonymous layers.
Way I see it, betting is the grammar of horse racing. Understanding it and using the lexicon enables me to consistently play the game I love.
How else can I do that without betting? Answer: a pari mutuel system with cheap admission and high prize money.
With a unique pari-mutuel system, a much larget proportion of the £15 billion pounds we gamble as a nation on the horses each year would be converted to prize money. I estimate ten to fifteen grand a race on artificial surfaces. Why bother betting? Why bother setting your horse up for a punt?
Why bother upsetting everyone like the owner and trainer of Spic and Span did two weeks ago at Southwell? With a ten to fifteen grand prize pool he would never have had to finish last in an eight runner seller before coming out to win a good Class 6 sprint handicap to general disbelief and not a little anger from tired and hard pressed locals. No wonder the trainer didn’t attend that day. The stewards you ask? No idea. Probably sleeping off a long, boozy lunch in the Queen Mother restaurant.
Check out the United States. Some of the tracks over there are ridiculous. $20k plus for a claimer. Hong Kong? Check. France? Check. Singapore? Check.
You and I could own a horse, Anthony. We’d never need to bet and we get to go to the races. Seen the admission price in the States? Two bucks to get in and dollar beers most days. I need either a big win on one of these punt horses at the sandpit or a loan from Ocean Finance just to afford a pint of rotgut and a shoe leather beef cob. The Yanks must be completely insane to allow exchanges to potentially ruin this thing of beauty.
Ricky
Having read your post a few times, i’m still not sure what your driving at. But i’m damn sure I won’t be reflecting on what i’ve said in 12 months time with "dismay". I’ll carry on my previews and in 12 months time, I will just repeat what i’ve already said. Betting in running is for people that can’t work out what is going to happen beforehand
Anthony, i’m glad you stepped in about the Bank Holiday fixtures. On the one hand we have people moaning that racing is under the bookmakers thumb, and then we get the quite extroadinary comments that they’re too many meetings this bank holiday monday, too many, there aren’t enough! They’ll all be packed out, as indeed they were years ago when you had 13/14 meetings on a bank holiday.
I’m not getting drawn into the small field arguments, suffice to say we had very few runners at Wincanton yesterday and bar the first I had no clue what was going to win 2f out.
It really annoys me when people refer to the midweek meetings as "dross". Without this dross how would up and coming jockeys get a start? how would the owner with not much money be able to have a horse? If you took away all the information, I guarantee most people would have difficulty in telling whether they were watching a 50 rated sprinter, or one rated 100.
I think i’ve made my point, i’ll carry on watching, enjoying and betting on the dross around the likes of Cartmel and Plumpton, and just peering over the sofa occasionally when i’m faced with million dollar horses, most of whom won’t reach a rating of 90, running in a straight line at Newmarket, owned by Sheikh someone or other, and probably trained by someone who charges the earth and is labelled as great when they manage to win a listed race with one of the charges.
**Max, I’ve just read your latest post, you say that a tote monopoly would increase prize money massively, and then you say that would in turn mean that owners/trainers etc wouldn’t need to back their horses, maybe i’m being silly, but doesn’t that then drastically reduce the amount being bet and therefore you wouldn’t get massively increased prize money, because no sod would want to back anything on the tote! which was the point I was trying to make earlier**
It’s my biggest issue with a Tote monopoly or PMU or anything like that.
I want to take a price, I don’t want to be subject to the fluctuations of a gamble. Some puts a few quid on, then someone else, momentum builds & the price shortens. Under PMU, what would be the point of studying & research if the end result is some JCLs latch on & you end up with a return of 36p?
Do you know what percentage of winners shorten dramatically in price? I’d wager it’s a lot less than you think. What percentage of racegoers want to ‘take a price’? A small proportion in all likelihood. I cannot imagine anything less user friendly to the novice racegoer than the rows of bookies we have in front of the stands at every course in the land. How much easier just to go up to a window and say the number of the horse you’ve picked.
Prize money is the problem – simple example:
0-85 handicap worth £4,000
0-60 handicap worth £2,000One semi-decent horse running on its merits, 3 maiden runs and a handicap mark of 80 and you get to run for £4,000. Now if I run it on say soft ground when it clearly wants fast and get it rated 58 he’ll have a far better chance of winning, repeat this process 5 or 6 times and he and the owners and trainers have a far better chance to recoup losses.
Add in the betting element, you’re losing out on £2,000 (or £100 @ 20/1 when it does get ideal conditions) which when it comes down to it is very very easy to get on both on Betfair near the off and with the bookmakers early on, even if you’re restricted there are enough third parties (think Barclay Betting, Platinum Betting and Betbrokers as were for examples).
With a 0-85 worth £25,000 and a 0-60 worth £15,000 you have to get a darn sight more on (to win £10,000 basically) to make it worthwhile stopping a horse.
Adding £200 on here or £400 on there for the sake of the Tariff isn’t going to make much of an impact on corruption.
Martin
My last post on this subject! and for once i’m going to have to slightly disagree with you Tuffers. Your probably right when you say that not many people that go racing are bothered about taking a price. But surely that money doesn’t actually add up to much. Most people at Hereford the other week, on free entry day were betting a pound or two per race. Of the bigger players now, how many would have £1,000 or more on the tote? I don’t bet in quite those amounts, but I wouldn’t want to bet £2 never mind £200 if I don’t know what price i’m getting.
I know people will say it works in France, Hong Kong etc etc, but thats what they know, they’ve always had it. I honestly believe it simply would not work in this country.I’ve always been in favour of a Tote monopoly, at least off-course, just look at Hong Kong and France, for example.
With big pools, not being able to take a price shouldn’t be too much of a problem, and of course it will even itself out in the long run.
The example of America is misleading, however. The high prize money on offer at many tracks there is almost entirely based on cross-subsidies from the casino side (including slot machines) of racecourse operations as well as state subsidies. This is coming to an end, and the sport is in terminal decline there. In these straitened edconomic times, people are becoming increasingly fed up with racing getting handouts when other areas of the economy are having to fend for themselves.
Irish Stamp
I don’t think what you are describing is corruption, it’s just playing the system, and not too difficult for punters or bookmakers to spot, so I doubt if you would get your 20-1.
But who are these third parties you refer to like Barclay and Platinum? I’ve looked them up on the internet and they don’t appear to be operating as bet poolers at present.
Irish Stamp
I don’t think what you are describing is corruption, it’s just playing the system, and not too difficult for punters or bookmakers to spot, so I doubt if you would get your 20-1.
But who are these third parties you refer to like Barclay and Platinum? I’ve looked them up on the internet and they don’t appear to be operating as bet poolers at present.
They’re effectively commission agents – you call them up and they place your bets for you, with the big firms such as Lads, Hills, VC, Coral’s etc. one way or another.
Look up a horse called Norisan that ran at Wincanton in November 2008 (I think) – firms were laying 33’s and 40’s in the morning, the same is true with plenty of other good gambles, such as the Elliott horse Cayo Levantado last year in Ireland.
Even if you couldn’t get the 20’s £200 @ 10’s is just as easy to get on, even £400 @ 5/1 or for the sake of arguing and expenses call it:
£400 @ 10/1 and £800 @ 5/1.
Do you know what percentage of winners shorten dramatically in price? I’d wager it’s a lot less than you think. What percentage of racegoers want to ‘take a price’? A small proportion in all likelihood. I cannot imagine anything less user friendly to the novice racegoer than the rows of bookies we have in front of the stands at every course in the land. How much easier just to go up to a window and say the number of the horse you’ve picked.
I’d imagine the vast majority of racegoers want to ‘take a price’ actually. Although they wouldn’t call it that, they wouldn’t call it anything until they went to the window to pick up their winnings & find them to be substantially less than they expected.
And you may say that on course bookmaking isn’t user friendly, but it is part of the raceday experience. Going up to a window isn’t quite the same.
Taking my post from another thread, Towcester want to ban the whip, how about one course having a Tote monopoly. I’m far from convinced it’s the way to go & I won’t be until someone tries it & we see the results. And I mean in this country. I couldn’t care less what France does.
Robert, I spent many months living in France during Zarkava’s race career + what struck me the most were attendance numbers. For what is the 4th biggest day on the French racing calendar, France-Galop were only too happy to print free invitations in the newspapers + hand them out in front of the course. Of the amount of people that were thee, I very much doubt the majority paid. And the course was empty. I’d estimate 5000 at most.
And you know, it was the same for the Saint Alary/D’Isaphan a week later. And the GP de Steeplechase a week later. And the Prix du Jockey Club a week later. And the Prix de Deine a fortnight later. Over the course of me being there and going to roughly 10 meetings, I think I paid once to get in.
This is what a PMU system offers. Very cheap entry with any proceeds going to running costs + horse racing. It completely supports the sport we love and want to see cleaned up.
And on weekends like these, horse racing is such an attractive proposition. Cropland costs over £100 for parents to take 2 children in. They even have to pay for parking now. The London Eye’s £35 a head, going to a football match just costs silly money, going and doing practically any ‘day out’ costs silly money.
But imagine tomorrow at Sandown with a PMU system. £5 each to get in? Kids go free. Can look at horses + go on a bouncy castle. What’s the more attractive option? They would flock in droves to come horse racing.
And punters wouldn’t bet anymore? You must be joking. I work in a bookies (only 3 1/2 months to go, woohoo) and 95% of my punters, in a very decent area indeed (Paul Merson + Dave Bassett live round the corner), are total addicts. They’d bet on anything. And when they’re not betting they’re on the FOBTs.
You just walk through a busy street in Paris on a Sunday our whenever and look out for all the PMU cafes. They’ll be full. And France isn’t even a nation of gamblers, only of drunks.
Do you know what percentage of winners shorten dramatically in price? I’d wager it’s a lot less than you think. What percentage of racegoers want to ‘take a price’? A small proportion in all likelihood. I cannot imagine anything less user friendly to the novice racegoer than the rows of bookies we have in front of the stands at every course in the land. How much easier just to go up to a window and say the number of the horse you’ve picked.
I’d imagine the vast majority of racegoers want to ‘take a price’ actually. Although they wouldn’t call it that, they wouldn’t call it anything until they went to the window to pick up their winnings & find them to be substantially less than they expected.
And you may say that on course bookmaking isn’t user friendly, but it is part of the raceday experience. Going up to a window isn’t quite the same.
Taking my post from another thread, Towcester want to ban the whip, how about one course having a Tote monopoly. I’m far from convinced it’s the way to go & I won’t be until someone tries it & we see the results. And I mean in this country. I couldn’t care less what France does.
That’s your argument against a PMU? New racegoers wouldn’t know roughly what they’d win? Easily solved. Create a forecast/projected SP (just like the Betfair SP) and simply print the amount on there. I’m sure most purple understand ‘forecast’ or ‘projected’.
And you may say that on course bookmaking isn’t user friendly, but it is part of the raceday experience. Going up to a window isn’t quite the same.
Surely you’ve seen the Tote stands at racecourses that operate exactly like on-course bookies? They’re everywhere. Exactly the same. ‘£5 each-way on Brabazon please’. Done.
P.s. Sorry about putting 3 posts together but using my tablet with this site is a nightmare.
P.s.s. Just remembered another would’ve been gamble. 2 Saturdays before Cheltenham, Tom George had a double after having been horribly out of form. I simply sent a tweet congratulating him + got a direct message in return. ‘Watch out for Singapore Storm’ it read. Have a look at his form utterly useless. 1st time handicap + was backed off the boards from an early show of around 4/1. Sent off around 7/4 + was tailed off but still goes to show you that not even gambling yards are still setting up punts like that.
I’ve seen stuff at Southwell this winter that isn’t sport. It’s like something I’ve never seen before, something completely new. Something brazen
No Max,you have just finally woken up and can smell the coffee at last.Southwells All weather racing has always been the best place in the country for skullduggery and has been for years,closely followed by Wolverhampton and Lingfield.I have always praised the Mugs that waste money on it as it keeps the Levy topped up for those that concentrate on quality racing.This thread tells us nothing we dont already know and yet some on here seem genuinely surprised that horse racing at the lowest level is corrupt.
That’s your argument against a PMU? New racegoers wouldn’t know roughly what they’d win? Easily solved. Create a forecast/projected SP (just like the Betfair SP) and simply print the amount on there. I’m sure most purple understand ‘forecast’ or ‘projected’.
Fair enough. How accurate is it?
I have absolutely no idea and it’d be really impossible to find out I imagine. If Betfair even hold the data, which I very much doubt, we all know of the kind of gambles that go on because we’ve spent the entire thread talking about them.
Obviously the Tote already offer screens on which the current pool odds can be seen.
People are savvy to things like the lottery, whereby 1 week 5 balls + the bonus could pay £250,000, the next it could pay £30,000, and it’d simply be a version of that.
Actually thinking about it working on the racecourse, it seems by far the easiest part of even beginning to think about how to integrate it into British horse racing.
Everyone’s familiar with the on-course bookmaker and the fact that the Tote operate exactly the same stands. I have no idea if they accept all bets, such as placepots, etc, but it wouldn’t be difficult to get a reader adapted into their computers. These stands are equipped with a screen whereby you can see the current odds of each horse at that specific point.
On-course bookmakers would cease to exist.
Many people on this forum have been not only to Longchamp and Chantilly, but Singapore, Hong Kong, so they know each country’s set-up, but in France they have several PMU terminals dotted around the racecourse where you simply feed in notes and bet accordingly.
Pubs and bookmakers around the country could have these PMU terminals in their shops and continue to take PMU bets.
In terms of ante-post, which I would absolutely miss no doubt, bookmakers (who of course can still offer betting options on all other sports, greyhound racing included) could simply continue to offer ante-post betting until the 48-hour declaration stage. I have no idea about how the levy would work on that or even if it’d apply, that’s for someone who knows far more about the business than I do.
But before we even begin to dream about/dread a PMU introduction, I just wonder who would actually support it? Would the Government even be in favour!?
Max . great post , will have to digest but in essence you express what I have been trying to say for years
Robert , my man go for it , if your enjoying and its paying , then what the heck , get in there , and good on ya
Somehow either the stuff I have been watching was a dream , or you are right , in any event its pointless arguing , we agree to differ
have a good EaSTER ALL , except you cheatin bustards that have ripped the heart out of racing
Ricky
Colin, Forgotten Voice was the ultimate insider bet.
The tricky Noseda doing his usual impersonation of a trappist monk; Paul Roy and his super-rich BHA apparatchiks in their mahogany-lined halls winking knowingly; work watchers, gypsies and touts perched in oak tree eyries. They all suspected what was to come and profited accordingly.
Of all the victories I’ve watched this week, this one left me the coldest.
There is something about this type of gamble that irritates me. The average punter watches it happen from outside in the cold, is excluded from it, somehow disconnected from the whole process. I can remember cheering like a demented clown when Pasternak won the Cambridgeshire as all the evidence was there for everyone to see and the animal had exposed form. Everyone from my local newsagent to the fryer in the chippy backed Pasternak down from 11/1 to 4/1.
Unless you were on the inside, you couldn’t back Forgotten Voice with brass washers. A masterpiece of hiding in plain sight from connections.
If Paul is reading this, was there much of a cheer? I’ll answer tonight as I’m off to Warwick and Leicester.
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … ce#p246489
Max, this post of yours has stuck in my head since I first read it and it seems more poignant than ever now. If this guy is the Chairman of the BHA, then quite frankly the BHA, the bookmakers, the exchanges and RFC are all the enemy. Who on earth is on racing’s side? The main media outlets for racing are all sponsored by bookmakers, both in television and in print, so who on earth is going to do anything about this?
This can’t simply be it forever, it can’t be. If it is, then I’m giving up now and I truly mean it. I’ll have a dozen bets a year in French Group 1s into their PMU and see if any of their takings on British racing goes back into British racing, but that’d be it. What I’ve woken up to over the past 2 days is far, far greater than I imagined.
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