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Holland said Dragon Dancer had no problems with the ground – just that he was very disappointing.
Yeah I have to agree with you about that Aidan. Dancing Brave’s Arc had about 8 horses finishing within 2 lengths of each other, yet apparently that shows that all the horses ran to form… :o
If you do look at race times from the Guineas though, the last 15 years’ winners have been way faster than the likes of EGS.
I see your point RD, but who decides if the form is weak or strong?
What if the races that the also-rans in EGS’s Derby went on to win were weak?
I’m not denying EGS was good, but all I’m saying is that people are very quick to dismiss form of races this century, simply because they didn’t happen 20 or 30 years ago.
Quote: from Gareth Flynn on 11:30 am on Oct. 20, 2006[br]
El Gran Senor beat proper horses in establishing his greatness.
It’s amazing how horses become more proper the longer ago they ran.<br>
Exactly. This is exactly what I think.
‘El Gran Senor was a proper G1 performer.  A great racehorse.  The opposition he demolished in that 2000 was no less than absolutly top class.  As Steve Mellish says, he had at least five G1 performers toiling in his wake that day. <br>Very sad that he is gone.’
How does that distinguish from George Washington? Sir Percy, Araafa, Amadeus Wolf, Killybegs, Frost Giant…
Haafhd – Azamour, Grey Swallow, Whipper, Milk It Mick, One Cool Cat…
So why aren’t they held in such high regard? Because they weren’t racing 20 years ago, they are racing now….
In 30 years time, they’ll have Best Mate and Arkle on a par….
Sea Bird wins the Derby in a canter by 2 lengths and is labelled the greatest thing ever – George Washington wins by 1 1/4lengths in a canter, yet the form is rubbished and he is branded a winner of a poor generation.
Meadow Court won the Irish Derby & King George. Araafa won the Irish Guineas and St. James’s Palace. Araafa won weak renewals though apparently. Why weren’t Meadow Court’s renewals weak? Oh that’s why…because they took place more than 40 years ago.
Ever thought that maybe Arkle won handicaps giving so much weight away because the rest of the field was crap?
Rock of Gibraltar only beat 2 real ‘stars’ in the Guineas – Hawk Wing and Where or When…so why is he a superstar? Surely the form there is very ‘weak’…
The vendetta against the horses of today is ridiculous. They could be just as good or even better than horses of old – nobody knows.
Times won’t tell you – ratings won’t tell you – nothing will tell you.
But I would like to add my condolences to the death of a great champion, El Gran Senor. I was very sad to see the news and hope his progeny can produce more superstars on his behalf.
(Edited by jackane24 at 12:17 am on Oct. 21, 2006)
Ah come on, Eagle Mountain was motoring in the final furlong of the Champagne and Futurity. No problem with a mile, because he’ll have his head in front well before.
Not to mention the above races were both on decent ground.
Yeah I don’t blame you Bulwark. Ahern liked him on his debut a lot, and said he just got tired in the last furlong.
Eagle Mountain will win though.
Yeah this really is quite brilliant.
1) I don’t like Sergeant Cecil very much.
2) I don’t rate him anywhere near Yeats
3) I copied and pasted every I saw of the race analysis. It was only a quick job, so I apologise if I missed anything, it was not intended. So he hangs? Not exactly in your favour is it? I wouldn’t want my horse to hang if I backed him.
4) I think what Reet Hard was pointing out when he said that the Cesarewitch was run in a decent time, look at the times of the individual furlongs, and they compare nicely with those furlongs of the Champions Stakes.
5) Might pay to watch replays on RP? No need Bulwark, I record all racing on terrestrial TV, especially the big meets like Goodwood. So what if he travelled nicely? So does Harchibald…
I’m getting fed-up with all this talk of slowly run races….Does it not mean anything to you that Cecil’s biggest wins have come on the SOFT?
2005 Race Record
12th, Hcap, 1m 4f, Gd-Sft, slow by 7.18secs
2nd, Hcap, 1m 4f, Firm, FAST BY 1.10SECS
3rd, HCap, 1m 4f, Good, slow by 0.67secs
1st, HCap, 2m, Good, slow by 2.87secs
Comments by RP – ‘A high-class renewal, in effect a 92-108 handicap, run at a true gallop. SERGEANT CECIL never left the inside rail and met his fair share of traffic problems, but it may well have suited him as he has to be produced as late as possible. Having finally got an opening, he quickened between horses to lead inside the final furlong and stamina was certainly not a problem.’
3rd, Hcap, 1m 6f, Gd-Sft, slow by 3.84secs
1st, Hcap, 1m 6f, Gd, FAST BY 1.24SECS
Comment – ‘There was a good, even gallop to this renewal from the outset, with Jagger taking the field along.’
2nd, Group2, 2miles, Gd-Sft, FAST BY 2.85SECS
1st, Hcap, 2m 2f, Gd-Sft, slow by 8.79secs
2006
4th, Group3, 1m 4f, Good, slow by 1.18secs
2nd, Group2, 1m 6f, slow by 16.61secs
5th, Group1, 2m 4f, FAST BY 2.05SECS
Comment – ‘He had Reefscape behind then, and he confirmed his superiority here in a race in which High Action set a solid pace and was clear until the field closed up at Swinley Bottom.’
2nd, Listed, 2miles, Gd-Firm, slow by 6.32secs
Comment – ‘He heads first for Goodwood for the Cup and a likely rematch with Sergeant Cecil, who went into this race highest-rated but again found a small field and its slower tempo all against him after histhrilling big-handicap wins, where he was seemingly flying through late off fierce paces.’
4th, Group2, 2miles, Gd-Firm, FAST BY 2.65SECS (this was at Goodwood)
Comment by RP after 3rd at Epsom – ‘He continues to run fine races against some of the best handicappers around and back on a galloping track remains one to be placed in top handicaps.’
1st, Group2, 2miles, Gd-Sft, slow by 3.97secs
Comment by RP – ‘They went a decent gallop which suited SERGEANT CECIL, who had met trouble in running inthe Goodwood Cup on his previous start and showed his true colours here, held up in rear, ridden over two furlongs out but staying on well under pressure to lead inside the final furlong.’
p.s. Ah here is the comment about Bulwark and the Melbourne Cup. Analysis for the Lonsdale Cup, which I DIDN’T LOOK AT
1st, Group2, 2m 2f, Good, No idea if it was fast or slow
1st, Group1, 2m 4f, Good, FAST BY 0.10SECS
Draw your own conclusions…
Yeah that 2nd to Where or When was not brilliant. I completely disagree about the Queen Anne being called a stinker though. Did Lafi run a stinker the other day?
That is disgusting. He’s turning it into another Royal Ascot. Be interesting to see how many women actually turn up. I don’t remember seeing a single one there this year.
Yeah quite a few good ‘uns have been mentioned.
My Way De Solzen over fences, Denman over fences, Nicanor over fences – I think Voy Por Ustedes could be an incredibly progressive horse and might just get the Champ Chase, but of course there is BJK as well.
Fantastic!!! Completely forgot Tajj ran until seeing this thread now!!! Brilliant result for all concerned, enjoy it, and I really hope she comes back a bigger and better horse and can stick her head in front this time. Congratulations!
Mounty, pick the horse you would do if it were a normal Saturday. Does it matter if it happens to be the favourite? Even if half the people win the fund, share it out between the syndicates, and you still get majority of the share.
Yeah she and Dylan Thomas have been put away for the season.
Aidan – How did you find out about the sales of Ace and Marcus Andronicus?
Yeah I have to agree. Look at his win in the Cadran – 0.10 seconds faster than standard!
Race comments from his previous 2 runs, beaten in both by Hawridge Prince –
‘Bulwark remains hard to win with, and again raced much nearer the pace, picking it up off the home bend before being firmly put in his place when under pressure into the final 2f.’
‘A change of tactics and rider produced an improved effort from Bulwark. He was dropped out in a soundly run race and covered up when improving into the pack before getting into contention, only to be buffeted around by the winner. He remains a difficult ride but hasbeaten some fair sorts for second.’
<br>And comments about Sergeant Cecil AND Bulwark from the Goodwood Cup –
‘Sergeant Cecil deserves rating better than the bare form as he fell foul of the blocked rail early in the straight. He lost all momentum and, by the time he had recovered and found room, the race was over. He was back in top stride at the line and continues in top form. He fully deserves a success at this level and still looks capable of such, although this fast pace is a prerequisite.’
People may not know what ‘prerequisite’ meants (maybe you do, but I had to ask my mum!), so….http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prerequisite
Or to save people the bother – ‘required beforehand’, ie Needs a fast pace to act
And now Bulwark….’Bulwark had the race run to suit, sitting right off the pace, and everything looked to be going his way as he moved up stylishly in the straight. However, he started to hang and bumped with Balkan Knight, which looked to put him off. He remains a hard ride.’
Quite how you think Bulwark will make it into the top 3 in the Ascot Gold Cup is beyond me. But hey, it’s your money, it’s your choice…
A UK reprimand does not go on a criminal record. How I know this information can be left to your imagination….;)
Quote: from Bulwark on 4:48 pm on Oct. 17, 2006[br]<br>Big chance blown, I hardly think that a newmarket listed win has been at the top of his agenda this season, but I would rather he didnt win anymore this season because I will consider a little each way bet on him for the Ascot Gold Cup next year, which I beleive to be well and truly within his scope.<br>
What? Run that one by me again…You hope he doesn’t win a Listed race so you get better value? I hardly think the bookies would have been rushing to cut his price had he won that race.
Ah come on Bulwark, look at the UK runners in this year’s Melbourne Cup seem to be handicappers – Geordieland, Land N Stars, Soulacroix, Glistening. Young Mick was also going to travel over, and Carte Diamond is now out of the race.
Yet apparently Bulwark is better than them all, apart from actually not having beaten them a lot of the time….
But about the Ascot GC – he finished 5th!!! Beaten only by Yeats, Reefscape, High Action and Distinction – the 1st 2 are Group 1 horses, and Distinction almost was as well – but he’s certainly a very tough and game performer, with Group 2 wins under his belt. For Cecil’s 1st crack at Group 1 company, I wouldn’t say it was bad at all.
It was also on quicker ground, not his preferred conditions, and also lost out due to interference during the race.
Cecil’s Cadran was not weak as I said before – he beat Shamdala, Reefscape, Alcazar, Le Miracle, none of whom are mugs.
And he needs a slow pace to win? HIs Ebor win was 1.24 faster than standard.
