Stayers Hurdle 2018

Home Forums Archive Topics Cheltenham 2018 Stayers Hurdle 2018

This topic contains 300 replies, has 51 voices, and was last updated by  moehat 8 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 166 through 180 (of 301 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1337256
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    I agree with most of that, Nathan. But if a horse had to be of excellent conformation it would be absolutely impossible for a small horse to be good. It may be unlikely for a small horse to be good, but it’s far from impossible. Galileo’s have an excellent record, but not all Galileo’s are good and there is the odd good horse by a supposedly poor sire. So if it is not impossible, there must be something unfathomable that tips the balance.

    value is everything
    #1337270
    steeplechasing
    steeplechasing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5398

    Speed and stamina are too simplistic in trying to explain class. What about the likes of Many Clouds and his will to win? How do you factor that in? There could be other benefits that we don’t know about and never will.

    I’ve mentioned before on this forum a Roger Federer interview I read where the journalist expressed amazement at his reactions on ultra-fast serves. Federer said, ‘When I am on my game, I see the ball the size of a dinner plate and it’s coming at me in slow motion.’

    If we were discussing class in tennis here, where would you slot that in among the obvious attributes?

    Who can say that the likes of Red Rum did not see the National fences (fearsome in his day) as little more threatening than haybales?

    In 2010 I went to New York to see the marathon and managed to get a roadside pitch at the 22 mile point. The leaders powered past and it set me thinking that they were travelling at close to 13mph and had been for more than 20 miles and they’d keep that up until the finish.

    If you are a gym regular, set your treadmill to 13mph and see how long you last. It is an astonishing speed to run at for so long, a superhuman speed. I’m convinced that top sports performers – human or animal – really are a class apart.

    Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience, then onlookers might not be able to tell the difference. https://lazybet.com/

    #1337273
    MarkTT
    MarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2372

    In theory the Greatest Sprinter might be easier to explain.

    If the best 800 metres runner has “more speed” than the second best 800 metre runner, why doesn’t having “more speed” just make him the best 400 metres runner instead of the best 800 metres runner?

    Where to start with that…

    #1337317
    Voleur
    Voleur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 658

    Don’t know about being able to go on forever, Nathan. When the conversation goes something like this:

    Ginge: What makes a horse top of the Class?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than other horses?
    Voleur: More stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
    Voleur: Staying better.
    Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than any other horse?
    Voleur: More stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
    Voleur: Staying better.
    Ginge: What makes a horse the best at intermediate trips?
    Voleur: Better blend of speed and stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes it faster at the intermediate trip?
    Voleur: More speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.

    We know what makes a horse the fastest is going faster, what we want to know is what makes it go faster? As I said, there are many contributory factors to that question but in the end what shifts the balance is imo something unfathomable.
    But if the answer to the question is actually speed and stamina genes then so be it, just surprising sports science hasn’t found them yet.

    My oh my, you’ve posted a few head scratchers on here but this one takes the biscuit. You actually went though the effort of typing that drivel? :unsure:

    The debate was about what makes one horse classier than another, I argued it was down to their respective levels of speed and stamina.

    The argument was never about why one horse is fast than another. Because of course that can be proven by science! :wacko: :wacko:

    When talking about what makes one human faster than anther, “it boils down to factors that affect either stride length or stride frequency that really determine whether someone is faster or slower than the next guy.

    Factors affecting stride length: height, optimal femur to tibia proportions, leg length, lean muscle mass, coordination, balance, flexibility, running technique, etc.

    Factors affecting stride frequency: proportion of fast and slow twitch fibers, lean muscle mass, etc.”

    That same science would apply in essence to a racehorse, and I’m sure the relevant studies have been carried out.

    So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self. :wacko:

    #1337320
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self. :wacko:

    It is “something unfathomable” because we don’t know what it is… and probably never will, Voleur. Not because it is something “spiritual”. Now that really would be “absurd”. lol

    value is everything
    #1337326
    Voleur
    Voleur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 658

    So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self. :wacko:

    It is “something unfathomable” because we don’t know what it is… and probably never will, Voleur. Not because it is something “spiritual”. Now that really would be “absurd”. lol

    Did you just choose to ignore the scientific explanation I provided above that quote?

    Are you so abhorred by the idea of being proven wrong, that you just refuse to see what is in front of your eyes?

    #1337336
    MarkTT
    MarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2372

    This was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
    Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.

    Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?

    #1337337
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    I didn’t “ignore it”, I’ve already covered it, V.

    “Class” can be measured by using lbs, albeit in an inexact science. Giving ratings to every horse in the land… And everything – from speed, stamina, temperament, trainer, jockey, stable lad/lass, enviroment, headgear, going, distance, draw/jumping ability, jockeyship, racecourse, pace of the race, whether a front runner, tracks pace, mid-div, held up, dropped out, breeding, conformation, action, etc. – all contribute in defining what the horse is capable of… But imo there’s still that something unfathomable that tips the balance in to making the level of ability of any individual racehorse.

    When talking about what makes one human faster than anther, “it boils down to factors that affect either stride length or stride frequency that really determine whether someone is faster or slower than the next guy.

    Factors affecting stride length: height, optimal femur to tibia proportions, leg length, lean muscle mass, coordination, balance, flexibility, running technique, etc.

    Factors affecting stride frequency: proportion of fast and slow twitch fibers, lean muscle mass, etc.”

    That same science would apply in essence to a racehorse, and I’m sure the relevant studies have been carried out.

    “…….Conformation, action etc – all contribute in defining what the horse is capable of… But imo there’s still that something unfathomable that tips the balance in to making the level of ability of any individual racehorse”. Conformation covers the body of a racehorse, action covers things like leg length, stride and all the other things you mention.

    It seems we now agree. ;-)

    value is everything
    #1337342
    Voleur
    Voleur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 658

    So now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?

    Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?

    Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.

    #1337343
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    This was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
    Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.

    Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?

    Yes, I thought so too, Mark. Then Voleur went off on another tangent and I thought we disagreed again. Now, we’ve gone around the circle once more. I don’t think there is much between our opinions. Just we’ve been talking about slightly different things.

    value is everything
    #1337346
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    So now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?

    Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?

    Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.

    Jeez,
    No, Voleur. We’ve been talking about different things. Not going to go around in another circle. Let it go.

    value is everything
    #1337348
    Voleur
    Voleur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 658

    This was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
    Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.

    Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?

    Yes, I thought so too, Mark. Then Voleur went off on another tangent and I thought we disagreed again. Now, we’ve gone around the circle once more. I don’t think there is much between our opinions. Just we’ve been talking about slightly different things.

    I went on a tangent? Twister indeed, if twister was a recognised sport you would be world champion.

    You don’t think there is much between our opinions? Then what have the last four-odd pages of debate been for? :wacko:

    #1337350
    Voleur
    Voleur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 658

    So now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?

    Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?

    Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.

    Jeez,
    No, Voleur. We’ve been talking about different things. Not going to go around in another circle. Let it go.

    Fair enough we’ll leave it at that. But if those are not the words of man who’s suddenly realised he’s fighting a losing battle but wont admit defeat, I don’t know what are.

    #1337352

    Jasolong
    Participant
    • Total Posts 389

    I define class as one horses ability to win from unfavourable circumstances.
    For example:
    Winning over unsuitable distance
    Winning on unsuitable ground
    Winning from an unfavourable race position
    Winning after some event that has negatively impacted the horses Chance

    #1337372
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24644

    You don’t think there is much between our opinions? Then what have the last four-odd pages of debate been for? :wacko:

    Four pages of misunderstandings, Voleur. I apologise for my part in those misunderstandings.
    What is/makes Class? Is a question that you seemed to answer by “more speed”. I thought you meant a sort of gene like thing or a sort of speed bits that add up; the one with more speed bits wins. Where as all it amounted to was essentially the fastest horse from A to B being the one that goes faster. Sorry, but that’s far too simplistic to answer the question I thought we were arguing. What I wanted to know was what actually makes it go faster than the other horse/s, what actually makes it the class it is?

    Fair enough you’ve now come up with a more scientific arguement, but I’d already covered “conformation and action”. To me there are many many things that contribute to how good a racehorse is – including conformation, action and yes speed and stamina, amongst others. But it is still an inexact science and therefore something unfathomable tips the balance in what makes a horse’s Class/rating. Now, apart from possibly the last sentence I don’t think there is much between our views, is there?

    value is everything
Viewing 15 posts - 166 through 180 (of 301 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.