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So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self.
It is “something unfathomable” because we don’t know what it is… and probably never will, Voleur. Not because it is something “spiritual”. Now that really would be “absurd”. lol
Did you just choose to ignore the scientific explanation I provided above that quote?
Are you so abhorred by the idea of being proven wrong, that you just refuse to see what is in front of your eyes?
This was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?
I didn’t “ignore it”, I’ve already covered it, V.
“Class” can be measured by using lbs, albeit in an inexact science. Giving ratings to every horse in the land… And everything – from speed, stamina, temperament, trainer, jockey, stable lad/lass, enviroment, headgear, going, distance, draw/jumping ability, jockeyship, racecourse, pace of the race, whether a front runner, tracks pace, mid-div, held up, dropped out, breeding, conformation, action, etc. – all contribute in defining what the horse is capable of… But imo there’s still that something unfathomable that tips the balance in to making the level of ability of any individual racehorse.
When talking about what makes one human faster than anther, “it boils down to factors that affect either stride length or stride frequency that really determine whether someone is faster or slower than the next guy.
Factors affecting stride length: height, optimal femur to tibia proportions, leg length, lean muscle mass, coordination, balance, flexibility, running technique, etc.Factors affecting stride frequency: proportion of fast and slow twitch fibers, lean muscle mass, etc.”
That same science would apply in essence to a racehorse, and I’m sure the relevant studies have been carried out.
“…….Conformation, action etc – all contribute in defining what the horse is capable of… But imo there’s still that something unfathomable that tips the balance in to making the level of ability of any individual racehorse”. Conformation covers the body of a racehorse, action covers things like leg length, stride and all the other things you mention.
It seems we now agree.
Value Is EverythingSo now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?
Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?
Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.
This was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?
Yes, I thought so too, Mark. Then Voleur went off on another tangent and I thought we disagreed again. Now, we’ve gone around the circle once more. I don’t think there is much between our opinions. Just we’ve been talking about slightly different things.
Value Is EverythingSo now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?
Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?
Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.
Jeez,
No, Voleur. We’ve been talking about different things. Not going to go around in another circle. Let it go.Value Is EverythingThis was how our discussion went. Like playing Twister.
Ginger, you agreed with Voleur a few pages back and then changed your mind.Has anyone had a fresh thought about this race in the last couple of days ?
Yes, I thought so too, Mark. Then Voleur went off on another tangent and I thought we disagreed again. Now, we’ve gone around the circle once more. I don’t think there is much between our opinions. Just we’ve been talking about slightly different things.
I went on a tangent? Twister indeed, if twister was a recognised sport you would be world champion.
You don’t think there is much between our opinions? Then what have the last four-odd pages of debate been for?
So now it is not only something unfathomable that makes one racehorse classier than another, but it is also something unfathomable that makes one racehorse faster than another? It is not the horses biomechanics?
Pleeeeease tell me this is a wind up Ginger?
Mark is right, I apologise to anyone who would have liked to discuss something pertinent to the Stayers Hurdle in the midst of all this.
Jeez,
No, Voleur. We’ve been talking about different things. Not going to go around in another circle. Let it go.Fair enough we’ll leave it at that. But if those are not the words of man who’s suddenly realised he’s fighting a losing battle but wont admit defeat, I don’t know what are.
I define class as one horses ability to win from unfavourable circumstances.
For example:
Winning over unsuitable distance
Winning on unsuitable ground
Winning from an unfavourable race position
Winning after some event that has negatively impacted the horses ChanceYou don’t think there is much between our opinions? Then what have the last four-odd pages of debate been for?
Four pages of misunderstandings, Voleur. I apologise for my part in those misunderstandings.
What is/makes Class? Is a question that you seemed to answer by “more speed”. I thought you meant a sort of gene like thing or a sort of speed bits that add up; the one with more speed bits wins. Where as all it amounted to was essentially the fastest horse from A to B being the one that goes faster. Sorry, but that’s far too simplistic to answer the question I thought we were arguing. What I wanted to know was what actually makes it go faster than the other horse/s, what actually makes it the class it is?Fair enough you’ve now come up with a more scientific arguement, but I’d already covered “conformation and action”. To me there are many many things that contribute to how good a racehorse is – including conformation, action and yes speed and stamina, amongst others. But it is still an inexact science and therefore something unfathomable tips the balance in what makes a horse’s Class/rating. Now, apart from possibly the last sentence I don’t think there is much between our views, is there?
Value Is EverythingI’m dizzy just reading how many times Ginge has run around in circles.
Steeple, Many Clouds had superior stamina. His threshold was higher than that of his opponents, it’s that simple as Voleur has been stating for the past 3-4 pages in my opinion.
The term ‘class’ or ‘classy’ I see as a horse that can perform to the same level regardless of trip, so basically a horse that can ADAPT his speed & stamina to suit the distance being run. Kauto Star being a perfect example.
Hope after all this that Supasundae wins the Stayers
With doubtful runner – Apples Jade.
Disappointments last time out – Lil Rockerfeller, Unowhatimeanharry.
Questionable temperament – Lami Serge.
Unseen – Penhill.
Needing to improve – Supasundae, Wholestone, Beer Goggles, The Worlds End, Thomas Campbell.
Possible switchers – Yanworth, Yorkhill, Finians Oscar, Bacardys…
…And Lami Serge could yet go the other way – to the Ryanair.
Coming back from injury – Killultagh Vic…Sam Winner has a lot going for him.
Lil Rockerfeller could still be the value, Mick Fitz said today that he wasn’t right after Ascot but will be fine come Cheltenham. The winner of last year’s Stayers Hurdle sadly isn’t with us anymore, third looks on the downgrade, fourth injured. Second, Lil Rockerfeller is 27/1 and has this season already beaten the horse that followed home Sam Spinner last time out – Lami Serge.
Value Is EverythingWithout wanting to drag the whole thing back up again, I think Istabraq illustrates my point about class very well.
On the flat, his lack of speed meant he was only a below-average handicapper, rated somewhere in the 80’s I believe. Therefore, it could not be said Istabraq was an inherently class horse, he certainly didn’t have this unfathomable something back then.
When stepped up to 2 miles however, the blend of speed and stamina that he had was ideal for that particular distance, allowing him to assert his class over his rivals. Class is relative, the correct blend of speed and stamina is required for a horse to be considered class in any one particular division.
As for the Stayers, I’ve given a lot of thought to taking the 12/1 NRNB on Bacardys. If he turns up, you would assume it’s because Penhill doesnt make it. If Penhill does make it and Bacardys still lines up, then they must believe Bacardys has him covered. We know he already has Finians Oscar covered, albeit over a shorter trip, but Bacardys looks the more stamina laden of the two to me.
Best case scenario Bacardys and Penhill both make it, Ruby chooses Bacardys eliminating any doubt as to where he stands in the pecking order, goes off 5/2 fav after strong market support. In other words I don’t believe Bacardys will line up and not be Willies firs string, if he doesn’t line up it’s money back.
What point does “Istabraq illustrate”, Voleur?
Istabraq wasn’t the easiest to keep sound in his early years and still had potential on the flat when sold. Timeform tipped him for the Ces’ that year. Bred to be a bloody good horse, indeed bred to be a Derby winner – By the best flat sire of his era Saddlers Wells (who was by Northern Dancer) out of Bettys Secret. Derby winner Secreto was by Northern Dancer out of Bettys Secret. Over hurdles Istabraq had different soundness, running in a different code with a different trainer; is it surprising he was a different animal?Has anyone said that horses don’t improve?
You’re arguing that 2 + 2 = 4, we all know it = 4.Value Is EverythingWith my antepost bet Harry looking like age has caught up with him, I’ve had another look through the market. Thought he was a pretty safe each way bet this year. Ironic as I’d said all through last season that I didn’t think hed win last year.
Like with Harry looking good last year, the same has to be said for Sam Spinner this year. However, I’ve got the same nagging feeling that he will find one or two too good. So looking at the market:
– Yorkhill – surely won’t run. Won’t stay anyway imo.
– Supasundae – don’t think he’s good enough. Was impressive last year to be fair.
– Apples Jade – Not running. Elliott is adamant she wins the Mares for me. Let’s hope so. She would win this though.
– Thistlecrack – Out for the season. Bet365 are morally wrong for having him even quoted.
– Penhill – Who knows what’s up with him?
– Finians Oscar – Very interesting runner. Will love the step up to 3m imo.
– Yanworth – I don’t trust the horse to run his race. Won’t back him personally.
– L’Ami Serge – Has a really decent record at the festival. Traveled beautifully last time behind Sam spinner. Strong chance.
– Uknowhatimeanharry – As I said already, age has probably caught up with him based on his runs this season. Still an each Way shout I suppose.
– Wholestone – A grinder who loves the track. Probably would find one or two too good though.
– The New One – They’ll probably put him in the Champion Hurdle as usual. Has a chance of running here but probably a year or two too late up in trip for this race.So at this stage, assuming Apples Jade runs in the Mares, I’d have Finians Oscar @ 9/1 NRNB or L’Ami Serge @ 10/1 NRNB for this. Won’t be adding to my long term Uknowhatimeanharry bet for a little while though. May wait a few weeks and then back one of those two though.
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