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It begins with the same horse, Voleur. To put it another way:
If a horse suddenly has “more speed”/becomes faster what is it exactly that would make it become effective at a shorter trip without changing its mark/class?… And what is it exactly that would make it change its class/mark without changing its required distance?My answer would be that its the blend of speed and stamina changing towards speed is what changes its distance requirements without changing its class. Where as it would be something unfathomable that changes its class without changing distance requirements.
Have you an answer?
Value Is EverythingUnless the horse somehow lost stamina in the process of gaining speed, there would be absolutely no reason for it to drop in trip. The question is null. It would instantly become more effective at the trip it already runs at because a) it already has sufficient stamina to be competitive at that trip, and b) it now has more speed which will allow it to achieve a higher rating at that trip.
E.g. A 2 mile horse has enough speed and stamina to achieve a mediocre mark at that trip, he suddenly gains excess speed which allows him to run to a higher mark. a) Why would he drop in trip? And b) is it not glaringly obvious why he can achieve a better mark at 2 miles?
Exactly, speed and stamina are about distance requirements, although there are many contributory factors in what goes towards ability/class imo there’s something unfathomable that tips the balance. Of course we are all in that way “lost” because it can not be fully explained.
Value Is EverythingI’ll try again. If a horse’s distance requirements change as a result in a change of the amount of speed or stamina it has, then its class would also change in relation to its opposition.
The New One for example. He once had the speed for 2 miles, and enough speed as to consider him as a class horse at that distance. He has since lost that speed, and is no longer considered a class horse at that distance. If he stepped up in trip however, the blend of speed and stamina he has now may be enough, relative to his opposition, to consider him a class horse at that distance.
Not an ideal example but you get the picture.
You may be lost, but not I.
I do not believe in this mystical, unfathomable, “something.” Some horses do have an aura, or a presence, like Sprinter Sacre did, but that is not what makes them class. Their ability on the racetrack does. I believe horses have speed, and they have stamina. A superior blend of the two will make a class racehorse.
You go your way and I’ll go mine, neither of us will lose a great deal of sleep over it I imagine. Although I have already lost more than I would have liked tonight…
You said both distance requirements and class are to do with the blend of speed and stamina. So according to you the levels of speed influence both distance and class. So if the balance changes a horse has more speed and when that happens sometimes it will mean it’ll be effective at a shorter trip – yes? Or is it in your opinion only “stamina” that influences distance requirements?
Sometimes an increase in the amount of speed will influence distance requirements without influencing class. Sometimes an increase in speed will influence the class of a horse without changing distance requirements.
Am struggling to see what causes a horse to go along one particular path when having “more speed”.
I thought you were dismissive of my idea of having different amounts of speed and stamina per horse? Am I wrong in thinking this “balance of speed and stamina” you’re talking about re distance is like a see-saw, if a horse gets more speed its level of stamina must come down in equal measure?
Value Is EverythingSo if we are not talking about where speed amounts go up stamina amounts come down by the same amounts, we must be talking about this type of scenario where different horses have different amounts.
Something you were dismissive about earlier. What a waste of time.
Value Is EverythingGuys – this seems like a private disagreement but here’s my view although I’m not sure if this will shed any light on the situation.
Class is simply a group of attributes which are either shared or not. Different classes (or groupings of attributes) are typically differentiated by some perceived notion of quality.
In horse racing terms I would see Class as the combination of speed and stamina, with an emphasis on speed, and how well this combination matches the race distance and type and relative to the other horses in the race.
Take Denman and Kauto Star. In car terms Kauto Star was the Ferrari and Denman was the Range Rover. Both classy vehicles but people tended to attribute more Class to Kauto because of his greater speed relative to Denman. Hence, class – as in high class – is the association of speed with superior quality and athleticism whilst possessing the requisite levels of stamina.
I couldn’t have put it better myself
Feel free to take over, I don’t think I ever want to hear the word class again.
Classic ginger this one….
He has the required stamina to go on forever until he has the last word…
I have to agree with Voleur here that it certainly is not unfathomable
Plenty of attributes needed to help with speed and stamina ie the ability to relax, switch off, conserve energy which helps in all distances be it 5 furlongs or 4 miles.
Joe said if you looked at horses in the paddock you wouldn’t be able to tell the class 7 from the top ones but I did see Sprinter Sacre in the paddock and he certainly looked the perfect specimen. I never saw Frankel live but on tv he always looked like he had the perfect formation. I think breeding comes into it to an extent look at how well the Galileo’s have done over the years but in the end the horses which are the ‘class ones’ are 99 times out of 100 the ones that win the most which are a high percentage of time the fastest, fittest, strongest etc
Good read guys….Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Don’t know about being able to go on forever, Nathan. When the conversation goes something like this:
Ginge: What makes a horse top of the Class?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than other horses?
Voleur: More stamina.
Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
Voleur: Staying better.
Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than any other horse?
Voleur: More stamina.
Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
Voleur: Staying better.
Ginge: What makes a horse the best at intermediate trips?
Voleur: Better blend of speed and stamina.
Ginge: But what makes it faster at the intermediate trip?
Voleur: More speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.We know what makes a horse the fastest is going faster, what we want to know is what makes it go faster? As I said, there are many contributory factors to that question but in the end what shifts the balance is imo something unfathomable.
But if the answer to the question is actually speed and stamina genes then so be it, just surprising sports science hasn’t found them yet.Value Is EverythingI agree with most of that, Nathan. But if a horse had to be of excellent conformation it would be absolutely impossible for a small horse to be good. It may be unlikely for a small horse to be good, but it’s far from impossible. Galileo’s have an excellent record, but not all Galileo’s are good and there is the odd good horse by a supposedly poor sire. So if it is not impossible, there must be something unfathomable that tips the balance.
Value Is EverythingSpeed and stamina are too simplistic in trying to explain class. What about the likes of Many Clouds and his will to win? How do you factor that in? There could be other benefits that we don’t know about and never will.
I’ve mentioned before on this forum a Roger Federer interview I read where the journalist expressed amazement at his reactions on ultra-fast serves. Federer said, ‘When I am on my game, I see the ball the size of a dinner plate and it’s coming at me in slow motion.’
If we were discussing class in tennis here, where would you slot that in among the obvious attributes?
Who can say that the likes of Red Rum did not see the National fences (fearsome in his day) as little more threatening than haybales?
In 2010 I went to New York to see the marathon and managed to get a roadside pitch at the 22 mile point. The leaders powered past and it set me thinking that they were travelling at close to 13mph and had been for more than 20 miles and they’d keep that up until the finish.
If you are a gym regular, set your treadmill to 13mph and see how long you last. It is an astonishing speed to run at for so long, a superhuman speed. I’m convinced that top sports performers – human or animal – really are a class apart.
In theory the Greatest Sprinter might be easier to explain.
If the best 800 metres runner has “more speed” than the second best 800 metre runner, why doesn’t having “more speed” just make him the best 400 metres runner instead of the best 800 metres runner?
Where to start with that…
Don’t know about being able to go on forever, Nathan. When the conversation goes something like this:
Ginge: What makes a horse top of the Class?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
Voleur: More Speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.
Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than other horses?
Voleur: More stamina.
Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
Voleur: Staying better.
Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than any other horse?
Voleur: More stamina.
Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
Voleur: Staying better.
Ginge: What makes a horse the best at intermediate trips?
Voleur: Better blend of speed and stamina.
Ginge: But what makes it faster at the intermediate trip?
Voleur: More speed.
Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
Voleur: Going faster.We know what makes a horse the fastest is going faster, what we want to know is what makes it go faster? As I said, there are many contributory factors to that question but in the end what shifts the balance is imo something unfathomable.
But if the answer to the question is actually speed and stamina genes then so be it, just surprising sports science hasn’t found them yet.My oh my, you’ve posted a few head scratchers on here but this one takes the biscuit. You actually went though the effort of typing that drivel?
The debate was about what makes one horse classier than another, I argued it was down to their respective levels of speed and stamina.
The argument was never about why one horse is fast than another. Because of course that can be proven by science!
When talking about what makes one human faster than anther, “it boils down to factors that affect either stride length or stride frequency that really determine whether someone is faster or slower than the next guy.
Factors affecting stride length: height, optimal femur to tibia proportions, leg length, lean muscle mass, coordination, balance, flexibility, running technique, etc.
Factors affecting stride frequency: proportion of fast and slow twitch fibers, lean muscle mass, etc.”
That same science would apply in essence to a racehorse, and I’m sure the relevant studies have been carried out.
So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self.
So no it is not something unfathomable that tips the balance that makes one racehorse faster than another. It is cold hard science. That notion is so absurd I’m nearly expecting you to turn around and try sell me a book about how I can tap into my spiritual being and connect with my higher self.
It is “something unfathomable” because we don’t know what it is… and probably never will, Voleur. Not because it is something “spiritual”. Now that really would be “absurd”. lol
Value Is Everything
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