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I think the horse was very lucky to keep the race. I would’ve been very unhappy if I’d backed Court Masterpiece whos run was checked at the just the wrong time.
Quote: from DeadlySins on 4:41 pm on June 12, 2006[br]Thank you Market Man for saving my fingers, I have been a fan of horse racing for about 12 years, there isn’t a lot I don’t know about racing I don’t know, but should I come unstuck would you mind if I contact you?
<br>Not at all but I’m not pretending to be some great authority on the sport, like everyone else there’ll be things I do know and other things I don’t. I don’t know everything by any means but I’m always willing to help if I can.
Quote: from Aragorn on 3:02 pm on June 12, 2006[br]Pardon my ignorance but what is bute?
<br>Bute is an anti inflamatory drug that horses are treated with and they’re permitted to run in certain US states with Bute in their system but its not allowed in other states or as far as I know anywhere else in the world.
Corruption in everything is present in every country. I think UK racing is about as straight as you’re ever going to get it though.
Quote: from robert99 on 11:41 pm on June 11, 2006[br]trackside,
What is more to the point is collateral rating a Gr1 winner in the region of 115+ when that race was ran slower than a selling race or 2yo maiden race on the same card.
<br>What is more to the point is how can a horse like Sir Percy be allocated a rating lower than the likes of High Rise? Still can’t get over that, regardless of descrepencies over the Derby form. Makes a complete nonsense of any rating system as far as I’m concerned. I’m sure someone will try and justify Dubai Millennium getting a Timeform rating of 140 as well or Celtic Swing 138 ???
Sorry, off track a bit I know, just puzzles me to the point of mind boggledness. :noway:
(Edited by The Market Man at 11:56 pm on June 11, 2006)
Quote: from clivex on 5:29 pm on June 8, 2006[br]I still believ that his derby performance and the way he accelerated would have beaten many fine horses on that particular day. Sometimes you just have to go with what you see and it may just be, that like with so many others, the edge had been taken off
<br>For once I don’t wholeheartedly agree with you. I just thought Motivator beat a lot of trees. The exceptions Oratorio who ran no race at all and Dubawi who was a miler, the rest were next to useless. Motivator went on to run a couple of creditable races but without winning and I’d rate him as nothing more than an average Derby winner.
Quote: from runandskip on 5:45 pm on June 6, 2006[br]<br>apart from 2000,01,02 all the derby winners since 96 never won another race,<br>
Absolutely, the reason is we’ve had a run of mediocre middle distance three year olds over the last decade or so, the three year olds have been average and the older horses better.
The fact that there have only been three or four what I would call top class middle distance three year old colts makes the ratings of some of them compared with Sir Percy’s even more baffling. A dual Group 1 winner and Guineas runner up, beaten only once by an incredibly talented miler rated below the likes of High Rise, Oath and Benny The Dip????? Come on, something’s wrong somewhere.
I have to say I really cannot understand the lack of recognition Sir Percy is getting right across the racing spectrum. Nick Mordin’s comments I find ludicrous from someone that should know better. Lets leave alone nit-picking for a while and look at facts.
Sir Percy has won two Group 1’s so far, a Group 2 and finished second in the Guineas to George Washington a horse that O’Brien and Fallon rate as the best they’ve been associated with. That means they rate him higher than Rock Of Gibraltar, Hawk Wing, High Chaparal and the rest (at least O’Brien has been associated with ALL of them). Sir Percy now has won the Derby yet has been given I beleve a RPR of 121 (hopefully someone will confirm) which is a lower rating than the likes of High Rise and Benny The Dip and (I think) 8 lbs below Motivator. What planet are these people on? Would High Rise, Benny The Dip or Motivator have had the speed to finish second in even an ordinary Guineas? What’s more, did any of those horses ever win again? Motivator beat Walk In The Park who cannot win a race. I really don’t get this at all to be honest.
Time figures have their place of course they do but you can’t judge everything by them. Was every single Mil Reef or Nijinsky or Sea Bird victory fantastic on the clock?
Ths years Derby wasn’t run at the crawl Mordin seems to be implying, it was run at a steady pace which the leaders quickened around Tattenham Corner. The leaders weren’t stopping at the end of the race (proven as they finished second and third) yet Sir Percy made up incredible ground ff a steady pace. If the race was run at Mordins’s crawl then Sir Percy’s performance would’ve been evenmore astonishing as you can’t realistically give horses such a start off a slow pace. The slower the pace the handier you lie.
If Sir Percy was Godolphin trained or O’Brien trained he’d probably be talked of as a mega star by now with a huge over rating (rather like Dubai Millennium), but being from a comparatively "unfashionable" yard it seems he’s dismissed as eternally lucky.
Racing is about winning not world record times, time will tell how good Sir Percy is but I’m sorry anyone that rates the likes of High Rise as superior to Sir Percy cannot surely expect their views to be taken seriously nor can those who put everything blindly down to luck.
I think its a bit early to knock the form. Hala Bek and Visindar should improve loads with experience and I don’t think Sir Percy liked Epsom at all, especially going downhill. SP has been beaten only once in the Guineas, has won Group 1’s and has stamna and a turn of foot. I think he’s very good.
Might be worth remembering Mill Reef didn’t win the Derby by miles, neither did Nijinsky and it was a close finish in 86 when Shahrastani beat Dancing Brave.
Blanket finshes usually indicate an average race but not always so in Derbies IMO, Epsom is an odd course. The best horse usually wins but it often doesn’t appear visually to be their best performance.
(Edited by The Market Man at 2:10 pm on June 4, 2006)
I thought Visindar ran a super race. If you ignore the hype and look strictly at performance Visindar probably ran today to a level he hasn’t previously, just IMO on the day he just wasn’t quite good enough. It may be that he’s slightly better over 10 furlongs time will tell. I suppose people who backed Visindar will be disappointed slightly by his performance but he’s actually ran a very creditable race. I think certainly Sir Percy will go on and frank the form and given the inexperience of Hala Bek and Visindar I expect them to turn into really good Group 1 horses. The second and third home are clearly decent but may always find one or two with a bit too much foot for them and I’d expect Hala Bek and Visindar to improve past them. I’m not convinced Sir Percy was totally at home at Epsom or that the race went ideally for him so I can see him improving too.
I think plenty of winners will come out of the race it looks to have good depth I wouldn’t rule many out of winning future races at reasonable levels.
Bloody hell.
Sorry, only just read this topic.
Puts things into perspective. Don’t know what to say to be honest, just so sorry and condolences to his friends and family.
R.I.P
It’s a terrible shame.
It will be interesting to find out what was said between Fallon and O’Brien at the start. Obviously something didn’t seem quite right but if Aidan thought there’d be a major problem he certainly wouldn’t have let the horse run, he’s a bloke who cares deeply. Just rotten luck.
Very good horse and a real shame.
Quote: from nore on 5:53 pm on June 3, 2006[br]Did Channel 4 exist in 1981?
Don’t think so, racing was still on ITV then I think.
Quote: from PAULCS on 10:41 pm on June 2, 2006[br]
<br>- Alexandrova was one of the most visually impressive Oaks winners you will ever see yet Jim McGrath made it sound as exciting as a Southwell claimer.
<br>
<br>I thought that. Surely the Beeb can find a better commentator from somewhere? Peter O’Sullevan must cringe. Jim McGrath would’ve made Shergar’s ten length saunter sound mundane.
Quote: from Prufrock on 7:46 pm on June 2, 2006[br]
Poor Oaks I think but a good performance from Alexandrova clearly appreciated the mile and a half and the fast pace
I think you will find that it was a fast-slow-fast pace.
They dawdled in the middle half mile of the race.<br>
<br>Yeah Fallon said as much, yet the time was pretty quick only just over a second slower than standard. Maybe the ground is drying out pretty quickly. The time of the first race was slower in comparison and Chancellor is a supposed softer ground horse, Shirocco also supposedly best on ground slightly slower than good. <br>Should get faster times still tomorrow, should be quickish good ground, maybe even a mention of good to firm?.
Flippin heck Alexandrova destroyed them. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Horatio Nelson go off favourite for the Derby now.
Poor Oaks I think but a good performance from Alexandrova clearly appreciated the mile and a half and the fast pace.
Quote: from davidjohnson on 3:43 pm on June 2, 2006[br]Both the front 2 surely below their best, for all the third has put up a career-best effort. But he was beaten further by the winner at Newmarket.
Again agreed. It was a funny race pace wise which probably explains why the front two almost certainly didn’t run up to their peak. As expected though they finished one – two, I’d’ve been shocked at any other result.
