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Great post Marginal, it’s always good to see someone put things into perspective, it makes us Frankel fans see things with less rose tinted glasses which is a good thing.
I would like to say it’s a sad loss to racing and Leicester City for the loss of Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha he was a Frankel fan and has a few of his 2yr olds.
All comers, all ground, all beaten
Interesting post MV, especially about expectations.
I would imagine that a significant amount of regression to the mean goes on with breeding outcomes. Trees don’t grow to the sky and even if you breed the best to the best, generations of horses don’t get much faster and faster and faster.
I bet if Treve went to Galileo there would be much expectation that the resulting foal would win about 5 Arcs and every other middle distance Group 1 you care you mention. But it probably wouldn’t. The best are outliers- after all, who would’ve been watching Kind delivering her Galileo foal and announcing to the world that this was going to be an all time great.
Of course you’re not going to get a world beater by crossing two absolute donkeys but the far right of the bell curve is small and unpredictable so I’m not surprised that Frankel hasn’t produced a 140 rated Frankel #2.
I would be quite surprised if Frankel (or any other current stallion for that matter) gets a 140 or above rated horse if I am honest.
Look at Timeform’s ratings and you will find only Shergar, Dancing Brave, Dubai Millenium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars & Frankel have achieved a rating of 140 or above in the last 40yrs – none of the all time greats (the ones in the 140+ club) have ever sired a horse that has reached that mark although Mill Reef (141) came close with Reference Point (139).
The best stallions of recent times i.e. Galileo (134) & Sadlers Wells (132) before him were very good but not superstars on the racecourse and maybe the next great stallion that will come along may be a one that was rated in the low to mid 130s as a racehorse.
Interesting to note that Frankel’s mum Kind has gone back to visit Galileo – I also wonder if at some stage Frankel will be getting a visit from a certain dual Arc winning mare?
I wouldn’t say any individual stallion who ran to the 130’s have any more chance of siring a 140 horse. There are many more stallions in this World who’ve run to 130’s than 140’s; so the 130’s stallions put together have a much greater chance of siring a 140 horse than the current two (Frankel and Sea The Stars) who ran to 140+…
And horses like Galileo (134) may well have run to 140 themselves had they been kept in training at four.
If looking at the best stallions around at the moment:
Frankel is a 140+. It would not be a surprise to see him produce a foal some time in the next 15+ years capable of just 4 lbs better than what he produced in his first crop (Cracksman 136).
Galileo has produced a 140+, comes from the best sire line of Northern Dancer and is related (a maternal 1/2 brother) to top stallion Sea The Stars who was also a 140…
and Dubawi is a sire who himself is by 140 horse Dubai Millennium.Obviously top stallions have a better chance of siring horses capable of top form.
Any individual stallion related to a 140+ racehorse has a better chance of producing a 140 horse than any individual stallion unrelated to a 140+ horse.Value Is EverythingKind is a wonderful mum LD and no wonder they want her to return again to Galileo..here she is with Frankel’s full sister born this February, not sure if she has a name yet?
https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/kind-delivers-galileo-sister-to-dual-world-champion-frankel/324073Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Racing Post are reporting a Frankel is set to reach the PTP scene soon.
Brimstone, a three-year-old bred by Khalid Abdullah’s Juddmonte Farms, failed to make it to the track in his first career as a Flat horse but is settling into his new life at Nicky Tinkler’s pointing yard in North Yorkshire.
The point-to-point trainer, who bought Brimstone for 20,000gns at the Tattersalls July Sale in Newmarket, said: “We went to the sales looking for some well-bred Flat horses as the nicer National Hunt stores have got so expensive.
“He’s a big, fine horse and you can see why he hasn’t run on the Flat as he wouldn’t be sharp enough just yet, but he certainly looks like a jumper and has been enjoying his schooling.”
A little different but hi! It happens to most sires, but it’ll certainly be interesting to see how Frankels get on in 3mile PTPs…i suspect if they can jump they will be pretty good.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Just goes to show that breeding is not always an exact science and can in some cases provide anomalies that the breeder could never have foreseen when drawing up specific mating plans.
With the stamina he seems to be imparting to his offspring, he could end up with some good jumpers and with the NH world seeming to be looking to pick up the speedier flat types over the typical NH bred horses these days it could very well be a good avenue to explore.
CASANOVA running at Wolverhampton 7.45 tomorrow night.
John Gosden trained for Princess Haya.
Should put up a very good show and he holds a Derby Entry.
Currently 6/4Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/frankel-a-rising-star-at-stud/#.W_-mksydNY0.twitter
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Thanks for sharing Jack. A good read that…
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Thanks from me too Jack
I’ve printed that off to save with Joni’s yearly summary on this Thread at the end of each season, look forward to the next one Joni. With Too Darn Hot the seemingly new kid on the block for next season and with his place already booked at Dalham Hall Stud Frankel is going to have to pull out all the stops for his fan club next season.
Jac
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Banstead manor? Since when did shiek Mo own Banstead? Really should check your facts before posting. TDH is off to Dalham stud when he retires. Although it’s bad omen that he been brought to soon. I’m not to sure he going to be as good a 3yr as he was this season.
Thanks for putting me right newyork1, promise you I do usually check my facts but somehow comparing TDH with Frankel I got my wires crossed there,and it was late at night
will put my post right, cheers..
I can spell Sheikh though
Unlike yourself I think TDH will fulfill his potential next year and hoping to be there to see him romp home in the 2000 Guineas..Jac
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Grand Visir entered to run on Saturday for Ian Williams. Says on Twitter could make his debut over hurdles. I’ll be there on sat with my little fella and be nice to see a Frankel run at Aintree!
The Grand Visir was entered to run last week and was pulled out at the last minute.
I’m looking forward to seeing Deadline Diva who won her hurdles debut in France last year after winning two of her three starts on the flat. She is now in training with Paul Nicholls.
All comers, all ground, all beaten
Just a little pick-me-up for the Frankel fans in the depths of winter.
A couple of paragraphs by John Boyce in Thoroughbred Daily News 28/12/18
“The focus here is on Europe as its season comes to a close. The 20 sires on our list are those that have so far produced the best elite racehorses from their Northern Hemisphere offspring. Our measure of greatness is how good their best 10 offspring are [According to Timeform ratings]. After all, this should be the foremost metric that defines a top-class sire. And for good measure we have included a ‘pace’ figure to cope with the fact that the best 10 runners of any sire is to a large degree a function of how long the sire has been around. So a low top-10 Timeform average is not necessarily a bad thing for a younger sire.”
“Mention of Frankel (GB) behooves me to say that he is doing just as well as a sire as he did on the racecourse. His 122.9 top-10 average score by the end of year three is outstanding. By some way the youngest sire in our ranking, Frankel is 5.5lbs ahead of the elite threshold and he has some quite exceptional crops in the pipeline. The Juddmonte stallion has set new standards in each of his first three years. His 104.3 in year one, 118.9 in year two and his 122.9 in year three are all the best ever achieved in the past 25 years. At the close of year three in their careers, Galileo had scored 122.6, Dubawi 122.4 and Sea The Stars 119.8.”
Great to read confirmation of what a great sire Frankel is and getting better with each year, thanks for that MV
Today at Meydan DREAM CASTLE won a Group 3 at age 5, proving that a year off in Dubai has done him the World of good and expect more from him this year.
Frankel’s other runner the much fancied Dubai Beauty failed to make the frame in the 3.05 and it looks like she may need some winter sun on her back and a return to turf to repeat her impressive Maiden win at Newmarket last year. JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...
will put my post right, cheers.. 
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