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Staying hurdler in the last 50 years better than Big Bucks?

Home Forums Horse Racing Staying hurdler in the last 50 years better than Big Bucks?

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  • #20525
    Racing Daily
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    • Total Posts 1364

    I cant name one. He was off the bridle against a great prospect in Dynaste, yet he found another gear in soft ground and tore the grey a new rear end.
    A pleasure to watch.

    #382984
    GingertipsterGingertipster
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    There has

    never

    been as good a staying hurdler as Big Buck’s.

    Admittedly the second best horse in the race went for home too soon and Five Dream is not a true Grade 1 animal…

    But BB won it easily with ears pricked. Plenty more left in the tank.

    value is everything
    #382987
    Racing Daily
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    He broke Dynaste’s heart, the horse thought he was the man and BB showed him he was wrong lol

    #382991
    HimselfHimself
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    • Total Posts 3772

    Not only the best staying hurdler I have seen, but I would say that Big Buck’s is the best horse Paul Nicholls has trained – and I include Kauto Star and Denman in that. The way he moved up to Dynaste with such contemptuous ease before motoring away from the Pipe horse, exuded sheer class. He is a proper racehorse.

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #382997
    Eclipse First
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    • Total Posts 1572

    Very hard to prove but I suspect Flyingbolt would have been anything he wanted at his peak. No doubt Big Bucks is a class horse.

    #383004
    BosranicBosranic
    Member
    • Total Posts 1982

    Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Buck’s have won eight of the eleven ‘World’ Hurdles run this century. Had he remained free of injury, Inglis Drever would arguably have made it nine from eleven.

    Sorry, but I fall into the category of those look on in admiration of a horse who has won on fourteen consecutive occasions, but the fact that three horses have dominated the division this century clearly suggests that it is not an overly competitive division.

    Yes, he is supremely talented, but I find it hard to consider him a great horse, let alone put him on a pedestal with the likes of Kauto Star.

    The staying division is still the poor relation in the National Hunt hierarchy, reserved for those who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They are not quick enough to compete in the two mile division and lack the scope for fences.

    It has often been said that you should never try and turn a top class staying hurdler into a chaser. Whilst there may be decent staying hurlders who have made the grade over fences in some way, shape or form, the likes of Iris’s Gift and Punchestowns have failed to make the same impact in recent years.

    I’ve often felt that the World Hurdle should be run over two miles-five. I don’t entertain the thought for a second that this would, in any way, detract from the Champion Hurdle. It would, however, make the ‘staying’ division far more competitive.

    As I have already stated in another thread, the Aintree Hurdle would represent a different challenge and would certainly take the horse outside his comfort zone.

    Racing should push for a Big Buck’s / Hurricane Fly clash, but as we have seen in recent years with the likes of Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta and, arguably, Frankel and Black Caviar next year, the fear of failure suggests this won’t happen.

    #383005
    nighthorsenighthorse
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    He broke Dynaste’s heart, the horse thought he was the man and BB showed him he was wrong lol

    But Dynaste is only a boy at 5. Mind you, the amazing thing is that Big Bucks is still a relative youngster at 8, with plenty more to come.

    I thought it was quite funny the way he was lolloping along in 3rd place, almost switched off. And then when Ruby woke him up it was almost like he said "What’s that Ruby? You want me to win it? Again? Well why didn’t you say so? Leave it to me, I’ll sort it. Here we go!"

    A joy to watch. Thanks BB 8)

    #383006
    Racing Daily
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    • Total Posts 1364

    Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Buck’s have won eight of the eleven ‘World’ Hurdles run this century. Had he remained free of injury, Inglis Drever would arguably have made it nine from eleven.

    Sorry, but I fall into the category of those look on in admiration of a horse who has won on fourteen consecutive occasions, but the fact that three horses have dominated the division this century clearly suggests that it is not an overly competitive division.

    Yes, he is supremely talented, but I find it hard to consider him a great horse, let alone put him on a pedestal with the likes of Kauto Star.

    The staying division is still the poor relation in the National Hunt hierarchy, reserved for those who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They are not quick enough to compete in the two mile division and lack the scope for fences.

    It has often been said that you should never try and turn a top class staying hurdler into a chaser. Whilst there may be decent staying hurlders who have made the grade over fences in some way, shape or form, the likes of Iris’s Gift and Punchestowns have failed to make the same impact in recent years.

    I’ve often felt that the World Hurdle should be run over two miles-five. I don’t entertain the thought for a second that this would, in any way, detract from the Champion Hurdle. It would, however, make the ‘staying’ division far more competitive.

    As I have already stated in another thread, the Aintree Hurdle would represent a different challenge and would certainly take the horse outside his comfort zone.

    Racing should push for a Big Buck’s / Hurricane Fly clash, but as we have seen in recent years with the likes of Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta and, arguably, Frankel and Black Caviar next year, the fear of failure suggests this won’t happen.

    What you forget is that this horse is also a Hennessy winner in all but text book, he was going supremely well when he came down 4 out. What was Inglis Drever in his ‘other’ career? A modest 1m6f handicapper on the flat?

    #383009
    BosranicBosranic
    Member
    • Total Posts 1982

    ^^I think you will find that Big Buck’s came down at the last in the Hennessy and was a few lengths down at the time of departure.

    As for Inglis Drever, he may not have been as good as Big Buck’s but was certainly more popular with the racing public. He embodied nearly everything that you associate with staying hurdlers.

    He wasn’t the greatest thoroughbred in the game, but boasted those imperative attributes of any champion – courage and consistency. He was a small fish in a small pond.

    Big Buck’s is the superior talent. His talents should be tested against superior opposition. He is a big fish in a small pond.

    #383010
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17727

    Both PN and Ruby have said – separately, and more than once – that Big Bucks is the best horse in the stable, and with so little around to test him, and the manner of his wins, there’s little evidence to say they’re wrong.
    Dynaste found this a totally different test of stamina to his Haydock win, and will probably have found a new occupation, come the World Hurdle.

    #383012
    BosranicBosranic
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    • Total Posts 1982

    Both PN and Ruby have said – separately, and more than once – that Big Bucks is the best horse in the stable, and with so little around to test him, and the manner of his wins, there’s little evidence to say they’re wrong.

    In recent years, the accomplishments and official ratings of Denman, Master Minded and especially Kauto Star suggest otherwise.

    #383013
    Racing Daily
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    • Total Posts 1364

    ^^I think you will find that Big Buck’s came down at the last in the Hennessy

    You are right of course :oops:
    Dunno what horse I was thinking of at that moment, but it remains that BB was a pretty good chaser too and could well have gone on to win many top races over timber. He is by no means a one trick pony like most horses that specialise at an extended 2m4f.
    I think Nicholls could easily switch codes even now, if he chose too, as BB has such a talent at sitting comfortably off the pace before switching on the nitro.

    #383017
    stilvi
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4525

    As for Inglis Drever, he may not have been as good as Big Buck’s but was certainly more popular with the racing public. He embodied nearly everything that you associate with staying hurdlers.

    And this is based on what – have you been out conducting surveys?

    Just because he treats his rivals with contempt it is very easy to suggests his rivals are not very good. Possibly it is just that he is an outstanding racehorse. You can pick holes in the winners from any category if you really want to but it just boils to down to personal opinion. Mine is firmly in the camp that Big Bucks is one of the best NH horses I have ever seen. In the same way Frankel has shown his ability at a mile, he doesn’t have to prove himself a jack of all trades.

    #383018
    del_boy
    Member
    • Total Posts 389

    think the only thing that could have matched and possibly beaten big bucks was of course inglis drever.

    the only thing that has the potential to get near big bucks this year is probably quevega, but sadly she wont be running in the world hurdle.

    #383019
    GingertipsterGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 26580

    We are in a vintage era for National Hunt racing. Am sure Timeform won’t mind me using their old ratings, but if there’s any problem please delete.

    Last year Timeform rated Big Buck’s 176+. The "+" is because BB pricks his ears and idles for almost every win. So there is no knowing just how good he actually is. Every other horse finds it difficult to give him a race, let alone beat him.

    Hurricane Fly was rated 172. I am surprised they didn’t rate him with a "+" too. But it just shows how good BB is. Hurricane Fly is one of the best two mile hurdlers for many years.

    Third best hurdler was Grands Crus on 171. Punchestowns, Time For Rupert and now Grands Crus have all finished runner-up in the Stayers Hurdle. It’s no coincidence they’ve run away from taking on BB again, by going chasing. Had those three stayed over hurdles, the staying division would certainly not be "uncompetitive".

    Just because a horse has more "speed", does not make him a better racehorse. This is how this century’s Timeform Top rated staying hurdler and 2 mile hurdlers compare.

    In 1999/2000 Limestone Lad 177,

    Istabraq 180

    In 2000/1 Le Sauvignon 178,

    Istabraq 180

    In 2001/2

    Baracouda 169+

    , Limestone Lad 167
    In 2002/3

    Baracouda 175

    , Rooster Booster 170
    In 2003/4

    Iris’s Gift 172

    , Hardy Eustace 167
    In 2004/5 Inglis Drever 162,

    Hardy Eustace 165

    In 2005/6 Mighty Man 166,

    Brave Inca 167

    In 2006/7

    Mighty Man 172

    , Sublimity 164.
    In 2007/8

    Inglis Drever 169

    , Sizing Europe 165.
    In 2008/9

    Big Buck’s 174+

    , Binocular 166.
    In 2009/10

    Big Buck’s 174+

    , Binocular 168.
    In 2010/11

    Big Buck’s 176+

    , Hurricane Fly 172.

    value is everything
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