- This topic has 65 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
He’s something of a machine, and deserves the plaudits, but there’s something ironic about hailing him as the best of all time after today’s win. It’s only 11 years since Baracouda put up an undeniably superior performance to win the same race as a novice. I’m not suggesting that Baracouda was Big Buck’s superior (the’ye very closely matched imo), but that performance was one of the most stunning I’ve ever seen in the division, and it appears no bugger even remembers it now.
It’s what Big Buck’s doesn’t show that makes him great imo
He’s something of a machine, and deserves the plaudits, but there’s something ironic about hailing him as the best of all time after today’s win. It’s only 11 years since Baracouda put up an undeniably superior performance to win the same race as a novice. I’m not suggesting that Baracouda was Big Buck’s superior (the’ye very closely matched imo), but that performance was one of the most stunning I’ve ever seen in the division, and it appears no bugger even remembers it now.
It’s what Big Buck’s doesn’t show that makes him great imo
What impressed me was the way he looked in trouble, Ruby showed him the whip, and within 200yds he was up there and proceeded to brutalise Dynaste. The way Dynaste flickered out showed that the horse simply blew himself up trying to keep with Big Buck’s massive stride.
Interesting you should say that RD – I’d have them down as similar types in style, if not in physique. Baracouda wasn’t a turn-of-foot merchant in my book, for all Thierry Doumen used to ride him that way. He had the most enormous, yet perfectly effortless stride and was at his best when the field was taken along at a strong pace on soft ground, and he was able to show that stride off. Here’s his Timeform Perspective entry from the 2000 Long Walk:
"BARACOUDA (FR) slaughtered his field in astonishing fashion; held up, he was pulling double over the runner-up as the pair pulled away from the others going to the third last, easily drawing clear after 2 out and pushed out on the run-in."
The runner-up was a Pipe-trained front runner. In this case not a handicap winner, but one who’d given weight all round in winning the Newbury long distance hurdle by 17 lengths on his previous start, gaining a Timeform rating of 170+. That’s 19 lb better than Dynaste coming into the race. The run of the race, the and the style of the victory was eerily similar to today’s contest, but the quality of the contenders then was better by all measures, yet Baracouda was barely off the bridle to win by 14 lengths and 13 lengths, the third home being the runner-up from that Newbury contest.
Big Buck’s may be marginally better than Baracouda – I won’t dispute that (for all it’s a debate which could rage on in the right hands), but this win pales (ever so slightly) in comparison to the 2000 renewal.
Interesting you should say that RD – I’d have them down as similar types in style, if not in physique. Baracouda wasn’t a turn-of-foot merchant in my book, for all Thierry Doumen used to ride him that way. He had the most enormous, yet perfectly effortless stride and was at his best when the field was taken along at a strong pace on soft ground, and he was able to show that stride off. Here’s his Timeform Perspective entry from the 2000 Long Walk:
"BARACOUDA (FR) slaughtered his field in astonishing fashion; held up, he was pulling double over the runner-up as the pair pulled away from the others going to the third last, easily drawing clear after 2 out and pushed out on the run-in."
The runner-up was a Pipe-trained front runner. In this case not a handicap winner, but one who’d given weight all round in winning the Newbury long distance hurdle by 17 lengths on his previous start, gaining a Timeform rating of 170+. That’s 19 lb better than Dynaste coming into the race. The run of the race, the and the style of the victory was eerily similar to today’s contest, but the quality of the contenders then was better by all measures, yet Baracouda was barely off the bridle to win by 14 lengths and 13 lengths, the third home being the runner-up from that Newbury contest.
Big Buck’s may be marginally better than Baracouda – I won’t dispute that (for all it’s a debate which could rage on in the right hands), but this win pales (ever so slightly) in comparison to the 2000 renewal.
I wont dispute that Baracouda was a brilliant hurdler, as was Inglis Drever, it is a debate that will rumble on.
It always delighted me when those green and white hoops (or was it green and yellow?) effortlessly came there to serve it up.It always delighted me when those green and white hoops (or was it green and yellow?) effortlessly came there to serve it up.
It was black, with a black and white quartered cap when he won in 2000, merely adding to the mystique. Then JP bought him and ruined everything.
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
normally when people say things like "he broke that horses heart" I take it with a pinch of salt, but it was certaintly true today, I mean who doubts that dynaste would have won that race comfortably if you had taken big bucks out of the equation?
poor bugger probably didn’t understand how the monster got past him.
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
If you’re going on form, then he’s not even in the top 3 staying hurdlers of the last 10 years, according to Timeform ratings. As well as Baracouda (175), both Limestone Lad (177) and the almost forgotten Le Sauvignon (178) have hit bigger figures. He’s clearly got something about him which suggests he’s even better than the bare form, but he needs to prove it in absolute terms.
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
Golden Miller
Arkle
Red RumBig Bucks isn’t in the top ten.
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
Golden Miller
Arkle
Red RumBig Bucks isn’t in the top ten.
Red Rum’s form was not actually that great anywhere other than Aintree, but the point is still valid, Sea Pigeon, Night Nurse, Desert Orchid, Bula, Wayward Lad, Dawn Run, there have been an awful lot of horses that could easily be as good or better than Bucks. But in the staying hdl division he is high up the list imo.
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
Golden Miller
Arkle
Red RumBig Bucks isn’t in the top ten.
Red Rum’s form was not actually that great anywhere other than Aintree,.
He won his fair share… http://www.famousracehorses.co.uk/redrum/redform.htm
Also:
BRITAIN’S BEST-KNOWN EQUINES
Red Rum
Red Rum: 45%
Black Beauty: 33%
Shergar: 23%
Desert Orchid: 16%
Muffin the Mule: 13%
Donkey from Shrek: 9%
Winnie the Pooh’s Eeyore: 8%http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6541281.stm
This should count for something, right? I’m sure if you ask your average uninformed Brit who the best steeplechaser of all-time is they’ll say Red Rum.Oh, it does count for something
There would be many trainers proud to have a reliable and honest horse like rummy in the stable even without the three national wins.What the non racing public would say regarding the best horses of all time doesn’t mean didly sh!t. You’d be as well asking a 5 yo school kid what he thought of Orsen Wells.
I looked back at Baracouda’s form just now because I don’t think he would have even come close to Beating Big Buck.
When he beat Iris’ Gift in the World Hurdle by 3/4 of a lengths Iris Gift had a OR of 142 by Aintree the next year he had been raised a massive 31 lbs
That’ s Arkle material that is.Timeform followed suit of course, gotta keep up with the Jones’s. A few runs later and within a year Iris’s Gift is back down to 150.
Now Big Buck’s when he beat Punchestowns in his first win went up a mere 11 lbs 15 lbs less than Iris’s Gift did and Big Buck’s never finished 2nd he won.
Had he gone up the same as Iris’ Gift Big Bucks would be rated about 194 now.
So please don’t quote Timeform figures to try and compare the two. Where the World Hurdle is concerned there figures are about on a par with the rating of Dream Ahead on the same mark as Frankel when anyone with only one eye and that was a glass one could see Frankel was in a different parish to him.
The same for me applies to Big Buck’s he’s amazing. He just keeps finding for Ruby in ever race he runs. It’s like there’s no bottom to him. Something comes to him he just kicks a little and goes a couple in front effortlessly if the came again he’d just do the same and keep doing it till they dropped down with exhaustion.
Kauto Star is regarded by most as the best Steeplechaser since Arkle. He’s a living legend the only horse to regain the Gold Cup and has a great chance of regaining the King George to add to his resume plus become the only horse to have won it 5 times.
If you or I owned a horse like that no way would anyone ever convince you there had been a better horse bar Arkle and some might even argue with that, Yet his trainer stated categorically Big Bucks is the best horse he has ever trained.
He must have some set of balls on him and be totally convinced he’s right to say that in front of Clive Smith but say it and mean it he did.
I think I’ll take Paul’s word for it that Big Buck’s is one very very special horse. He probably deserves an even higher rating than he has. Unfortunately there’s nothing else gets the opportunity to do much that will boost there ratings to boost his even higher although Oscar Whisky or Thousand Star might in the future.
Not that it matters. Even you think he’s the best you’ve ever seen like Paul Nichols or you think Timeform know better.
Hurdygurdyman,
let’s be clear that I’m not belittling Big Buck’s – everything about him suggests he’s a monster, but let’s also not belittle other great hurdlers to make him look better. Regarding Baracouda’s worth in handicapping terms – he proved that by actually running in and winning a handicap off a mark of 170. You won’t find many horses doing that in your lifetime, I assure you. Your interpretation of Iris’s Gift’s form also does you no credit. He had a lowish rating coming into the 2003 Stayers Hurdle simply because he was a novice, but proved in finishing such a good second that he was out of the very top drawer. He then finished second of 18 off a mark of 167 on his return from injury the following year, despite needing the run, and improved again by toppling the champion in March. You point out that only a few runs later he was rated just 150. You do realise that was as a novice chaser, don’t you?
unquestionably big bucks is in the top three of horses to have ever run under national hunt rules, full stop.
If you’re going on form, then he’s not even in the top 3 staying hurdlers of the last 10 years, according to Timeform ratings. As well as Baracouda (175), both Limestone Lad (177) and the almost forgotten Le Sauvignon (178) have hit bigger figures. He’s clearly got something about him which suggests he’s even better than the bare form, but he needs to prove it in absolute terms.
Agreed Rory,
Big Buck’s performance yesterday wasn’t his best. Neither was it as good as Baracouda’s in the same race. There’s certainly been brilliant staying hurdlers in the past. I agree, Baracouda was a very similar type to Big Buck’s.Le Sauvignon, Limestone Lad and Baracouda all have similar ratings to Big Buck’s; and on Timeform ratings BB doesn’t come out the "best" staying hurdler. However, he does give the impression there is more in the locker (hence the "+").
I think the true answer to the question of which horse is best? Is: If the four horses met at their very bests; who would you make favourite?
To me, the answer is Big Buck’s.
Value Is EverythingI think the true answer to the question of which horse is best? Is: If the four horses met at their very bests; who would you make favourite?
To me, the answer is Big Buck’s.
A good question, and a fair answer. Le Sauvignon would undeniably be the outsider of the party despite being the "best" on the figures, especially if the race was in Ireland.
That’ s Arkle material that is.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.