- This topic has 65 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Big Bucks is certainly the best staying hurdler I’ve seen and IMO, would’ve had the measure of Baracouda and Inglis Drever. He has an air of invincibility about him.
Without Big Bucks, Grand Crus would’ve won his last seven races and be reigning champion stayer.
Limestone Lad, admirable racehorse and folk hero he may have been, raced twice at Cheltenham and was beaten twice, by Bachannal and then on his final outing was way behind Baracouda. He did have some good efforts in Ireland (notably beating Istabraq by 5 1/2 lengths) but in general was at his best in small fields, allowed to dictate/take soft lead in soft/heavy. I think his rating flatters him a little.
The staying division is generally weak in most eras (it’s rare to have more than two/three really good ones at a time). That makes it uncompetitive and allows horses like LL, Baracouda and Big Buck’s to amass huge win/race ratios. It (the uncompetitive nature) makes it difficult to rate them also. Big Buck’s isn’t the type of runner likely to rack up the wide margin wins that attract huge Timeform ratings.
Rory is spot on that he does give the impression that he is somehow better than his bare rating but I’d agree you can’t rate him just on that impression.
Where do people think Inglis Drever sits in the pantheon?
Limestone Lad, admirable racehorse and folk hero he may have been, raced twice at Cheltenham and was beaten twice, by Bachannal and then on his final outing was way behind Baracouda. He did have some good efforts in Ireland (notably beating Istabraq by 5 1/2 lengths) but in general was at his best in small fields, allowed to dictate/take soft lead in soft/heavy. I think his rating flatters him a little.
Limestone Lad simply didn’t travel, fretting badly if he was away from home and not eating up. He didn’t need a soft lead or small field, imo.
Unlike Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Limestone Lad, Big Buck’s has not been beaten in top hurdling company and has not been extended. Therefore any putative rating awarded must immediately be qualified with a + p or at least ?
It’s all very well – and fun admittedly – trying to quantify the ratings of such unbeaten horses via ‘yardsticks’ ‘pricked ears’ and "appeared to have more in the locker" or whatever, but it is so much easier to quantify the ratings – both retrospectively and prospectively – once the horse is beaten, or at least ‘given a race’
Big Buck’s is a marvellous staying hurdler and a joy to watch. Hope he never gets beaten, but it’ll be damned interesting, and educational, if he does
165 170 175 ?? but ++ yes indeed
Yes, unfair to judge LL on Cheltenham efforts Rory, agreed, shouldn’t have flagged them up.
I agree he didn’t necessarily ‘need’ soft lead, heavy conditions and small fields but I think his most flattering efforts occured when he had a permutation of those combinations. Baracouda and Big Buck’s haven’t had those luxuries.
Amazed at what I saw today. Horse has never much been on my radar screen before today [other than being rather beautiful]. Anyone else surprised at PN saying he was a box walker?
Please, what is meant by the term "box walker"?
I did hear PN say that it’s hard to keep him fit and from putting on too much condition because he’s so lazy at home, but I didn’t hear the box walker comment, and have never heard of it before.
I think Big Buck’s, like many other champions of their discipline in sport such as Joe Calzaghe, Stephen Hendry and Phil Taylor (until recent years), suffers from being the only stand out competitor and will struggle to fend off the question – "Yes well done, but who did you beat?".
It goes without saying that the staying hurdle division is weaker than the staying chase division, and always will be. But a horse (or boxer/snooker player etc..) can only beat what is put infront of them.
Big Buck’s has stuffed everyone he has met out of sight. Punchestowns is the only horse that has ‘beat him’ on ratings as he was a good few pounds wrong at the weights when they first met. However, Big Buck’s in hindsight won with an awful lot in hand that day so the weight difference can be rendered irrelevant.
Probably the best horse he has beaten is Kasbah Bliss. Grands Crus could yet take that title if he goes on to festival glory this year.
It is unlikely that Big Buck’s will meet a top drawer rival this season as there simply isn’t one around. That’s not his fault.
I suppose an interesting hypothetical question would be; in a World Hurdle, assuming all are at their peak, how would you price it up if Big Buck’s took on Kauto Star and Denman?
If all three met in a Gold Cup then I’d have Big Buck’s priced much longer than the other two.
I think Big Buck’s, like many other champions of their discipline in sport such as Joe Calzaghe, Stephen Hendry and Phil Taylor (until recent years), suffers from being the only stand out competitor and will struggle to fend off the question – "Yes well done, but who did you beat?".
Well, that’s an interesting question, and among the horses he has beaten that have done quite well elsewhere are:
– grand crus
– lough derg
– time for rupert
– diamond harry
– mighty man
– fair along
– blazing bailey
– kasbah bliss
– don’t push it
– snoopy loopy
– albertas runHe’s also one of the very few horses to be able to win at the festival and follow-up at aintree; Inglis Drever couldn’t. He also still, after a winning run of 14 races, has a + after his Timeform rating.
That’s quite a list but tbh some have about the same meaning as Goldikova beating Rip Van Winkle. Fine and well beating a horse but if he doesn’t run up to his own form and finishes a mlie behind it means ziltch.
I happen to think Big Buck’s is to long distance hurdling to what Ali was to heavyweight boxing.
Being older than most on here I’ve seen most and although most guys will protect and support their horse from their era, I can put my hand on my heart and truthfully say that in my opinion none of them would have beaten Big Bucks.
I remember Francome and Derring Rose was very exiting,Gay Chance was classy, Nomadic Way was very good as were Baracouda and Inglis Drever but not one of them had Big Buck’s undoubted power.
The horse I would have as the nearest challenger to Big Buck’s would be Brown Lad
After winning the World Hurdle he went chasing and won the Irish Grand national the same year ..Both Arkle and Flyingbolt won the same race but neither was ever asked to run in it again as it was considered way to gruelling a test and took so much out of a horse.
Brown Lad was though and he won the race 3 times in 4 years and I think I’m right in saying no horse before or since has even won it twice.
He had speed, an abundance of class and unlimited stamina. No doubt he would have won 3,4 or even 5 World Hurdles had he not gone chasing. Certainly none of the horses who won the World hurdle for the next few years were anywhere near as good as he was.
"- grand crus
– lough derg
– time for rupert
– diamond harry
– mighty man
– fair along
– blazing bailey
– kasbah bliss
– don’t push it
– snoopy loopy
– albertas run"Some good horses in that list. Great horses though?
I’m not trying to knock Big Buck’s here by the way, I’m just pointing out that, as has already been mentioned, we may never know just how good he is as he nobody will want to challenge him until the inevitable decline with age sets in. And that isn’t his fault.
Muhammed Ali’s greatness could be measured against the other greats he fought against in his era. Sadly for Big Buck’s, he may never have a ‘great rival’ to bring out the best in him.
This is why we should count our blessings that this century we have witnessed the brilliant triumvirate of two mile chasers Well Chief, Azertyuiop and Moscow Flyer, and of course two all time greats in Kauto Star and Denman.
I think this idea of stronger divisions is something of a red herring. You get good and bad years in all divisions. Many people would no doubt big-up Best Mate but didn’t he fall over the line beating Commanche Court? Personally, had he have stayed sound I think Looks Like Trouble would have taken him to the cleaners. The game revolves around opinions many of which cannot be substantiated. One thing is for sure no other stayer has dominated the division in the same way as Big Bucks.
nighthorse; you’ve got me questioning what I heard now [not unusual these days, my memory being somewhat ‘fragile’]. Box walking is like crib chewing/wind sucking; a stable vice and I thought it was difficult to keep condition on horses with such traits. Hurdygurdyman; was reading up again on Brown Lad yesterday [he was mentioned on another forum]. Didn’t race till he was 8, the excuse from his owner being that ‘they couldn’t catch him’. Fascinating horse, and somewhat unheard of in this side of the channel. Second in a Gold Cup as well [albeit in bottomless ground].
Big Buck is one hell of a staying hurdler. But, as a man who knew a lot more about horses that myself said to my father in broad west cork, "life is like a three mile hurdle , they go F****** quick and it is a F****** long way." That man was the last man to train a mare to win the Grand national and my father rode round Sandown at the age of 49. I would love to see Big Bucks run in the Ascot Gold Cup, in fact I have written to Santie asking for as much. The idea that he hasn’t beaten much is frankly a complete BAG OF…
The year Brown Lad was a novice chaser, Cheltenham was a quagmire, and the meeting was curtailed to two days, with the 3-mile novice chase reset for the end of the last day. As a precaution, he ran in the 3-mile hurdle on the first day, and absolutely strolled home, possibly the easiest winner I’ve ever seen at the festival. He was still intended to take his place in the 3 mile novice chase, but conditions became so bad that the meeting was abandoned after Ten Up’s Gold Cup.
So the Lad never got the chance to achieve what would have been an incredible double. Over 3 miles, in soft ground, he was unbeatable, but he wasn’t quick enough for fences; his two Gold Cup seconds came on good ground, one of them, I think, when the Gold Cup was postponed until April.nighthorse; you’ve got me questioning what I heard now [not unusual these days, my memory being somewhat ‘fragile’]. Box walking is like crib chewing/wind sucking; a stable vice and I thought it was difficult to keep condition on horses with such traits. Hurdygurdyman; was reading up again on Brown Lad yesterday [he was mentioned on another forum]. Didn’t race till he was 8, the excuse from his owner being that ‘they couldn’t catch him’. Fascinating horse, and somewhat unheard of in this side of the channel. Second in a Gold Cup as well [albeit in bottomless ground].
Moehat, thanks for the reply which is actually raises a bit more confusion for me. I take it that this "box-walking" vice would involve the horse constantly being on the move, literally forever marching around his box. This also doesn’t quite fit with my impression of him being a pretty laid-back sort of chap. What PN said about him being very lazy at home seems to back up that impression.
Fascinating little snippet about Brown Lad. They find it easy to make fools of us don’t they, whether we’re riding them or betting on them!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.