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certainly the best 3 mile hurdler, but only because the really great hurdlers compete at the most prestigious and competitive distance. For example, I think Dawn Run was probably the best 3 mile hurdler ever, tho I think she only ran in one such race – the French Champion hurdler. But she had bigger and more ambitious targets.
3 mile hurdling is National Hunt’ poor relation.
I have the same criticism of Moscow Flyer, probably the greatest 2-mile chaser, but never tried to prove himself in the 3 mile division.
There is a ranking in prestige and competitiveness; 3 mile chasers, 2 mile hurdlers, 2 mile chasers, and right at the bottom, 3 mile hurdlers.3 mile hurdling is National Hunt’ poor relation.
I have the same criticism of Moscow Flyer, probably the greatest 2-mile chaser, but never tried to prove himself in the 3 mile division.
There is a ranking in prestige and competitiveness; 3 mile chasers, 2 mile hurdlers, 2 mile chasers, and right at the bottom, 3 mile hurdlers.Timeform ratings this century suggest the staying hurdlers are no longer the "poor relation".
Moscow Flyer was indeed a great 2 mile Champion, in 2003/4 he was rated 183 (best rating 184+ in 2004/5). Best Mate, rated 176+ in 2003/4 (best rating 182 in 2002/3). So it is a great shame Best Mate did not "prove himself" by going down in trip to take on Moscow Flyer at either 2m or 2m4f. It works both ways.
Why is it people say Big Bucks isn’t as good as the 2 mile hurdlers because he hasn’t got their speed? Yet don’t say the same about staying chasers? Was Denman’s Gold Cup any poorer because he hadn’t got speed / hadn’t proved himself at 2 miles?
Best Mate certainly had less to contend with at staying trips. Moscow Flyer had two other rivals rated 180 or more in Azertyuiop and Well Chief. The best horse best Mate took on (at staying trips) was Florida Pearl 173, some 9 lbs inferior to Azertyuiop and Well Chief.
Who can forget the brilliant 2 mile hurdlers of the 70’s?
So there is NO "ranking in prestige and competitiveness". Some years the 2 mile chasers will be best / more competitive. Some years the staying hurdlers, sometimes 2 mile hurdlers and sometimes staying chasers.
Value Is EverythingHad Big Buck’s never appeared again after the 2008 Hennessy, we could only have speculated about his potential. But we have the advantage of three years’ of hindsight and from what he’s shown since, there must be a very strong chance he’d have won that Hennessy.
He was 5 at the time. He was rated 153 and carried 11.7. It wasn’t the highest quality renewal but it was truly run and he’d have been the first 5-y-o to win.
BB wasn’t a staying hurdler trying ‘chasing as a natural progression. His first seven runs in the UK were over fences. He ran just twice at 3m plus – beating Battlecry at Aintree, then that Hennessy unseat.
Returned to hurdles, at 3m, he gave Don’t Push It 16lbs to start his unbeaten run.
I think it’s possible that his early clumsiness over fences might well have been a combination of inexperience and things happening too quickly over too short a trip.
He doesn’t have Frankel’s charisma. There is nothing fancy or seductive about his style of running or winning though he is a fine looking individual and a very taking mover.
I’ve no doubt whatsoever he has the best engine in NH racing and think it’s a real shame that his trainer today ruled out any return to ‘chasing. Andy Stewart’s on record as saying the Gold Cup is his holy grail. He could live a hundred more lifetimes and he’ll never have a better chance of winning the Gold Cup than with Big Buck’s who could make half a dozen errors in an average GC and still win it, imo.
Finally, one of the expressions I used to mock and detest on the Betfair forum was ‘Free Money’. But Ladbrokes post-race 4/5 NRNB for the World Hurdle, was exactly that.
The reason he is hurdling is because he doesn’t jump fences. The reason he failed to win the Hennessy was because he didn’t jump the fences on the day. If you fail in that fundamental area any speculation to what might have happened is utterly futile.
I don’t see the point in even mentionining what could have been over fences. Just enjoy the best staying hurdler we’ve ever seen.
I’m glad Thomas fell off in the Hennessy, without that we’d have missed a Master hurdler. We don’t criticise top class chasers for not being top class hurdlers. So why criticise top class hurdlers for not being top class chasers?
Value Is EverythingThe reason he is hurdling is because he doesn’t jump fences. The reason he failed to win the Hennessy was because he didn’t jump the fences on the day. If you fail in that fundamental area any speculation to what might have happened is utterly futile.
Your cold logic is correct but in a plea for the defence, he made one mistake in the Hennessy prior to the unseat – it’s not as though the horse was hitting every other fence
I daresay that Flatterer came close. Won the 2 3/4 mile Colonial Cup four times as well as the 3 mile Iroquois Hurdle. Maybe the only American hurdler who could compete with his European counterparts. And while Big Bucks is rated 176, Flatterer actually carried that weight to a win.
1983 Champion Steeplechaser
1984 Champion Steeplechaser
1985 Champion Steeplechaser
1986 Champion Steeplechaser
1983 1st American Grand National Stp. H. $15,000
1983 1st Temple Gwathmey Steeplechase H. $40,000
1983 1st Colonial Cup Steeplechase H. (L) $50,000
1984 1st New York Turf Writers Cup Stp. H. $40,000
1984 1st Delta Airlines-Bear Stearns Stp (L) $50,000
1984 1st Colonial Cup Int’l Steeplechase H. $50,000
1984 1st Brook Steeplechase H. $40,000
1985 1st Colonial Cup Int’l Stp H. [L] $60,000
1985 1st Temple Gwathmey Steeplechase H. [L] $50,000
1986 1st Colonial Cup Int’l Stp. Hcp. [L] ($36,000 ) $60,000
1986 1st Atlanta Cup Steeplechase Handicap ($32,340 ) $50,000
1986 1st National Hunt Cup Stp. Handicap ($15,000 ) $25,000
1987 1st Iroquois Steeplechase Hcp. [L] ($50,000 ) $100,000
1984 2nd Bolla Hard Scuffle Stp H. $35,000
1985 2nd Midsummer Steeplechase H. (O) $20,000
1985 3rd New York Turf Writers H. [L] $50,000
1987 3rd Middleburg Spring Steeplechase Hcp. (O) ($2,750 ) $25,000
1986 2nd Gr Course De Haies D’Auteuil Hurdle (FR)
1987 2nd Waterford Crystal Champion Hurdle (ENG)
1986 NTR ATLANTA (T) 2Mabt 03:46.20
1984 CNR BELMONT PARK (T) 2 1/2M 04:40.00
1984 BELMONT PARK 2 1/2M 04:40.00
1985 CNR BELMONT PARK (T) 2 5/8M 04:51.20
1984 CNR CAMDEN (T) 2 3/4M 05:09.00
1987 CNR GREAT MEADOW (T) 2M 03:31.40
1986 Sent to FranceSometimes it only takes one mistake to end a horse’s race, career or even life. I would assume that trying to school Big Bucks after the fall he showed a lack of confidence in jumping fences so the decision was made to revert to hurdles.
While Frankel is undoubtedly a fine specimen of a racehorse and possibly even displays some degree of equine presence, I have yet to witness that he has any great charisma. Perhaps you are getting conned by the media hype. Charisma in animals is probably a myth, but I’d accept that Red Rum had a sense of occasion, and perhaps Desert Orchid and Persian Punch to a lesser extent.
The reason he is hurdling is because he doesn’t jump fences. The reason he failed to win the Hennessy was because he didn’t jump the fences on the day. If you fail in that fundamental area any speculation to what might have happened is utterly futile.
Your cold logic is correct but in a plea for the defence, he made one mistake in the Hennessy prior to the unseat – it’s not as though the horse was hitting every other fence
I was going to say the same. Aldaniti won a National in 81 and yet fell the following year at the first.
That doesn’t in any way detract from his jumping ability at all, or mean he cant jump a fence in different circumstances on a different day.Are you saying that Aldaniti would have won the National in 1982?
No, just that the fact he fell at the first doesn’t mean the horse forgot how to jump a fence between 81 and 82. Different day, different race, different ground etc
On a different day, it may be that BB would have jumped them to sleep in a Hennessy.Should Istabraq’s position be demoted because nothing was good enough to take him on?
Absolutely spot on Ginger. How many took Arkle on when he ran in his 2nd and 3rd Gold Cups? 3 and 4 and he’s the highest raced chaser of all time.
Big Buck’s has beaten some real good animals in his time. Before he won his first WH Punchestowns who had won Saturday’s race by 11 lengths was a would be superstar and Big Bucks went off at 6/1
3rd fav. Kasbah Bliss who is still winning went of fav having run so well the year before.Mill House was a brilliant horse but he was made to look very ordinary by Arkle. Not quite the same but Grand Crus was put right in his place by Big Bucks and he’s a helluva horse.
I doubt if any previous winner would have done more than force him to go a bit faster but the end result would have been the same.
PN should use the World Hurdle as a pipe opener win that then if Kauto doesn’t make it just go win the Gold Cup as well. If he put in a clear round he probably could, he’s that good.
Best of all time no doubt in my mind
Point taken, but people speculating on what might have been helps bookmakers get a good night’s sleep.
Amazed at what I saw today. Horse has never much been on my radar screen before today [other than being rather beautiful]. Anyone else surprised at PN saying he was a box walker?
He’s something of a machine, and deserves the plaudits, but there’s something ironic about hailing him as the best of all time after today’s win. It’s only 11 years since Baracouda put up an undeniably superior performance to win the same race as a novice. I’m not suggesting that Baracouda was Big Buck’s superior (the’ye very closely matched imo), but that performance was one of the most stunning I’ve ever seen in the division, and it appears no bugger even remembers it now.
He’s something of a machine, and deserves the plaudits, but there’s something ironic about hailing him as the best of all time after today’s win. It’s only 11 years since Baracouda put up an undeniably superior performance to win the same race as a novice. I’m not suggesting that Baracouda was Big Buck’s superior (the’ye very closely matched imo), but that performance was one of the most stunning I’ve ever seen in the division, and it appears no bugger even remembers it now.
Baracouda was a different type of horse, would sit there from 3 out and pounce in the final 100yds. Big Buck’s rips them to pieces with sheer power.
Baracouda had to be kidded up to get there, whereas BB does the hard work without any horseplay (sorry, couldn’t resist the pun lol)
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