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I dont really agree the proride was a massive difference. Ravens Pass is by Elusive Quality and Henry is by Kingmambo. Not exactly sires that would be unheard of with dirt performers. Id expected them all season to be just as well suited to dirt as a firm turf surface, no reason why I would now say that they were suited to the proride surface and the yanks werent. I think to say that takes away from the performances of two very good european horses.
Ravens Pass and Henry are IMO just better horses than curlin and co.
Come off it Bulwark, you expect my or anyone else to believe that after so many years of failure in the Classic with some absolute greats, we suddenly get a 1-2 the 1st time its switched to all-weather and its a coincidence?
Couldn’t have it for a second, who is the better horse is a moot point to your arguement.
A fantastic result for Europe and so great to see the Yanks get whopped in their own back yard with their wonderhorse.
A rematch must be on the cards, maybe Wolverhampton or Southwell on a December Tuesday should be the order of the day.
Quoth the Raven…
‘EVERMORE’ a Champion!
RAVEN’S PASS ($29.00), winner of the 2008 Breeders’ Cup Classic.More photos from Breeders’ Cup:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/326106/t … Cup+photos
Close call between Zarkava and Ravens Pass for flat horse of the year with honourable mentions for Conduit, New Approach, Henrythenavigator and Duke of Marmalade.
For me the filly gets the nod but it’s been a grand old season.
Thanks for the picture Badactor – did you take it yourself?
Come off it Bulwark, you expect my or anyone else to believe that after so many years of failure in the Classic with some absolute greats, we suddenly get a 1-2 the 1st time its switched to all-weather and its a coincidence?
Couldn’t have it for a second, who is the better horse is a moot point to your arguement.
I couldnt disagree more PC, most of americas big 1m2f dirt performers are by Mr Prospector. Not many of our top class turf colts are by mr prospector, most are by northern dancer (giants causeway, george washington et al). Dubai Millenium and Hawkwing are two of our recent decent mr prospectors that spring to mind.
Suddenly this year we have two outstanding gd-fm milers by mr prospector, who lets face it were head and shoulders clear of their entire generation at a mile on gd-fm, and both of whom looked like they would get further. All season these pair have had Breeders Cup Classic written all over them as they had the breeding and the form in the book to have a serious stab. It hardly comes as a shock result on all known form.
Now they have beaten the Yanks on their proride surface we are saying that it was because the yanks were disadvantaged by the proride surface (which more resembles dirt than turf to be fair), and so Curlin would have beaten Henry and Ravens on plain old dirt. Not a chance Im believing that.
Curlin came off the turn at santa anita as well as he ever has and was swallowed up by his superiors, and collared for third by a better timed horse, when he threw in the towel. Plain and simple. Curlin’s jockey even said that there were no excuses, he gave his running and was beaten.
I hope that our own AW racing gets a massive kick up the butt now and adds enough decent group races to keep group class sand horses over here.
Seeing horses like Ventura reaching listed class over here then migrating to find enough suitable races/and prize money will be a growing pattern with more tracks switching surface in the US.
Cormack… yes, indeed!
All of the photographs are "badactor originals."
Thanks again for allowing me to visit The Racing Forum.
I do enjoy sharing my passion for horse racing with this fine group!Dell Yount
From Raven’s Pass bio on NTRA.com…
‘Strong North American pedigree could translate well stateside, he’s by Elusive Quality out of a mare who is by Santa Anita Handicap winner Lord at War.’
I think it’s fair to say that a combination of factors attributed to Raven’s victory on Saturday.
The pro-ride surface was the great equaliser. It didn’t really benefit anyone. However, Curlin’s record on dirt is phenonmenal and the the synthetic surface took him out (or away from) his comfort zone and certainly offered a different challenge.
Conversely, it improved the chances of the european horses. It didn’t favour our horses because ‘it’s more like turf’. Pure nonsense, really. Like I said, it was the great equaliser. It detracted from the chances of the American horses, like Curlin, and therefore increased our own.
The surface didn’t favour anyone and therefore it was a level playing field. One of the main benefits of the pro-ride surface is the reduced kick-back – a huge plus for european contenders.
Make no mistake, Raven’s Pass and Henry are exceptional talents and very tough. It’s no coincidence that the two best milers in the field were fighting out the finish.
I think Fist made a great point. I, too, am not convinced RP can translate that form to turf in a truly run, British-style race. It will be very interesting.
European 3YO form was solid. Raven’s Pass and Henry have been going at it all season. Henry was beaten in France by Goldikova, who went on to claim the BC mile. She was beaten by Zarkava, who won the Arc. Derby winner New Approach was beaten by Henry in two Guineas before winning the Irish and Dubai Champion Stakes.
I’d like to see someone criticise this years Classic Generation. St Leger winner Conduit also tasted victory at Santa Anita.
Our success at Santa Anita can be accredited to a number factors. The pro-ride surface definitely helped, but it was the strength of our contingent that was the catalyst for our success.
It will be very interesting to see if we can duplicate this success in future Breeders Cup.
I would like to think the Pro-Ride has been a contributing factor to the Breeders’ Cup Classic becoming of a "World Championship" as the Septic Tanks so short-sightedly claim it to be.
I think we saw those contenders running on their absolute ability alone, and advantaged/disadvantaged by the surface evenly.
I was thrilled by the meeting and want to be sure I am in attendance next year. The coverage on TV stopped before Raven’s Pass entered the winner’s circle and the Cox Plate review programming begun. Not happy.
If anything he won so easy it was too good to be true but oh how I would have loved to see what Zarkava would have done to that lot. He may be the best in the world now but if she has been around she would have eaten the lot of them for breakfast.
I’m not so sure. There’s every chance that she would’ve choked on that breakfast.
Zarkava conquered Europe but Raven’s Pass owns the world
Well I am a huge fan of Raven’s and always have been since I first saw him. For some reason known only to myself he reminds me of a very good horse called Right Tack.
I am totaly convinced he is a top miler and not a 10 furlong horse and I though Henry was some sort of wonder horsewhen he beat him early in the season.
However according to his trainer he improved dramaticaaly over the last couple of months and has now fullfilled the potential many of us thought he had.
Good on him…Great fantasitic and all that Jazz but make no mistake he is no Zarkava. She did it at every distance without breaking sweat. Unfortunately we never saw her in full flight as there was never any need so we will never know how much she could have produced if required.
I studied her every move before backing her for the Arc. I watched every piece of film I could and with a critical eye. I was trying find a reason not to back her. Something I do everytime I am going to have a big punt.
I just couldn’t find one flaw in her and thought and still do think she is the most perfect specimen I have seen since Sea Bird II.
That is why I was so adamant she would win the Arc and why I am so Adamant she is in a different league to Raven’s Pass and co.
Incidentally this place you call WORLD is it anywhere near Longchamp ?
Would agree with Bosranic – the term ‘equalizer’ is one i agree with, and explains my thoughts better perfectly.
Its a factor – how Bulwark can think it wasn’t is beyond me.
Anyone else heard that Dettori is being banned by the American stewards for his celebrations?
Haha!
Would agree with Bosranic – the term ‘equalizer’ is one i agree with, and explains my thoughts better perfectly.
Its a factor – how Bulwark can think it wasn’t is beyond me.
Two top class horses, both bred to handle dirt, go to america, and beat american horses very similarly bred for the same surface. Surely it must be because the horses in question were trained in europe.
Ravens Pass is by Elusive Quality, sire of Smarty Jones who almost won the Yank triple crown in 2004, he is out of a mare by Santa Anita winner Lord At War. If he was trained in america and he won no-one would be saying it was the proride surface, because he is bred for dirt, the only difference between Ravens Pass and any of the other contenders is that Ravens Pass was trained in Britain (he is not a british bred horse), so what people are saying is that the credentials for handling the proride surface is that you are trained in britain or ireland. I personally think that is ridiculous. Not only that but ravens pass is also trained by a trainer who has trained in america. Notice that one sire who has always struggled to get winners on dirt is danehill and where did the duke finish on the proride surface? Of course the duke must have been over the top, despite wearing the magnier first colours.
Of course other factors like perhaps the pace and the fact that both were stepping up from a mile and had speed to burn would have nothing to do with it I suppose.
What if the Yanks batter us for the next five years on the proride surface (which I suspect they will), then will people say "hey actually maybe henry and ravens pass were just better than curlin and co in 2008". its not like it was a sadlers wells and a montjeu did a 1,2 in the race, it was an Elusive Quality and a kingmambo. If you were to look at the result from a breeding perpesctive it reads no different from any other year.
I apologise if this comes across as in anyway sarcastic. I just think people are looking for excuses why their curlin bets were beaten at the weekend and proride is an easy if unrealistic answer to that IMO.
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