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My argument is not that it without a shadow of a doubt wasnt a factor. I just dont think it is that likely.
These two horses were breeders cup classic horses through and through, previous european contenders may have had decent form but didnt have the credentials that these pair had this year. George Washington didnt handle the dirt surface and wasnt bred to (being by danehill) and also didnt get the trip as he proved on every attempt at 1m2f. Galileo (think he challenged for it didnt he?) was by sadlers wells and although a great horse on turf, didnt handle the surface. Giants Causeway was bred to handle dirt, and did handle it and should have won had kinane not dropped the reigns.
Its not just a case of having european horses that have good form in the book on turf, they have to able to handle dirt. The americans havent exactly ran poorly on this surface, but it is entirely possible that they were completely done for toe up the run in, after all they had been running their best races at 1 mile on fast ground over here suggesting that they were very speedy animals, and that as a preparation would have prepared them for a slow pace much more so than the americans. This is perfectly feasible.
Fair enough it is the first year on proride and it is the first european 1,2 but I think this is merely coincidence, if it had have been dirt I think the result would have been the same as these two europeans are american in all but were they are trained. It will probably be some time before we have another two that are as ideal for this race again, so I am happy to celebrate their achievement for now.
I would love to see an in form Ravens Pass tackle Curlin again in the Dubai World Cup.
Well argued – agree to disagree then. Definately agreed regarding the Dubai WC, but doubt it will happen.
I know it is fairly unlikely, but then Sheikh Mohammed has shares in this horse and loves winning in his back garden. Curlin Im not so sure would turn up.
I think we will have to agree to disagree regarding proride, and again well argued, I will just treat it like dirt next year again, if any europeans go over next year that dont have dirt loving profile I’ll be staying well clear of them, IMO this is still a surface for the yanks.
If i’m proved wrong next year, i’ll gladly be so. Its certainly food for thought i will remember this time next season.
Bulwark you are talking complete nonsense. When was the last time you saw a horse quicken like Raven’s Pass at the end of a top class dirt race?
Whatever the ins and outs of their breeding he and Henry were able to best Curlin because of their superior turn of foot. Whether that’s because of their training or innate ability doesn’t matter, it’s the fact that a turn of foot is what wins races on the proride that matters and the Yanks know it.
They have selected for different qualities in their horses, namely the ability to run fast for a long time on a tiring surface and don’t want to have to relearn breeding and training to adapt to the new world of synthetics.
That’s why you won’t see the synthetics make progress over there, the status quo is too precious to them. We’ll perform well again next year and normal service will be resumed in Churchill Downs in 2010. Raven’s Pass wouldn’t win a Dubai World Cup on dirt if he started now.…you won’t see the synthetics make progress over there, the status quo is too precious to them. We’ll perform well again next year and normal service will be resumed in Churchill Downs in 2010.
American racing, a sport which recently was on its knees, but is now lying prone on the ground, has no choice in the matter any more.
It has more or less been told what to do, and what to do is to go all-weather.
It no longer matters what the old rednecks and moneygrubbers who have so mismanaged the sport there for so long think.
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It isn’t just the pro-ride that should worry the Yanks either.
By my estimation Europe provided 11 of the 62 runners in the turf races, and from those garnered 3 wins, 3 seconds, and 2 fourth places – a statistically incredible feat.
If that’s to be believed, then European horses generally are some way in front of the USA’s.Definately sounds to me as if a few Curlin wagers went south the other night.
IMO, RP is a the better horse and i’d back him to beat curlin again if they lined up next week on Curlins ‘favoured’ dirt
…I get the feeling though, that some will just trot out the another lame excuse of some sort.That’s likely to be a moot point as we won’t see Curlin again, but trusting these horses to run to that form again on dirt will put you in the poorhouse, believe me. I was in print as a layer of Curlin and therefore have no bet-related axe to grind (though I admit I didn’t think Raven’s would stay 10f!)
I backed Raven’s Pass but to say Raven’s Pass is definately a better horse than Curlin, on that one performance is in my opinion wrong. Curlin was also beaten by an American pal, he just did not run to his brilliant best. But that best had not been seen since the Dubai World Cup. Curlin may well have run to the same level as he has run to since Nad El Sheba. All that can be said is Raven’s Pass in the better horse NOW.
Think a lot of credit goes to Gosden, Fortune and his team, particularly the work riders who obviously did a great job in settling the horse.
At the start of the season Raven’s was thought to be a doubtful stayer at 1m. Held up each time seamingly to get the trip and make full use of a turn of foot. However in the Goodwood Mile he made all and did not pull at all. In my opinion there is no way he would have stayed the trip of 1m2f at the seasons start. He clearly stays it at seasons end.
Mark
Value Is EverythingIt isn’t just the pro-ride that should worry the Yanks either.
By my estimation Europe provided 11 of the 62 runners in the turf races, and from those garnered 3 wins, 3 seconds, and 2 fourth places – a statistically incredible feat.
If that’s to be believed, then European horses generally are some way in front of the USA’s.If Pro-Ride and other all weather surfaces come into play more in the States, the American breeders will simply do what the Europeans did years ago…by into the "blood" of the other team.
‘Well I am a huge fan of Raven’s and always have been since I first saw him. For some reason known only to myself he reminds me of a very good horse called Right Tack".
The name is familiar but for the life of me a cannot remember the details.Can you help?Thanks
Bulwark you are talking complete nonsense. When was the last time you saw a horse quicken like Raven’s Pass at the end of a top class dirt race?
Whatever the ins and outs of their breeding he and Henry were able to best Curlin because of their superior turn of foot.I have already pointed out the possibility that their turn of foot, in that they were both stepping up from a mile, could have been a significant factor in them winning, but this a matter of pace and not just surface.
Ive said all season that on a quick turf or a dirt surface that I expected Ravens Pass to stay 1m2f, so IMO a dubai world cup should be well within his compass.
IMO we only stand a chance of winning next year if we send the right horse (that is if we even have a right horse), just sending a 130ish rated turf miler (if we even have one of them next year) IMO is not a guarantee of success. This year we had two exceptional milers by Mr Prospector, but we seldom even have one, why? Because they are so popular in america for the dirt that they buy up most of the best ones, in much the same way as in europe we buy up mostly northern dancers.
A quick look through the dewhurst of this year and probably the best two Mr Ps we have are huntdown and soul city, are they likely to be able to emulate the form of Ravens Pass and Henry? Doubtful I would say. Bolgers Giants Causeway dewhurst winner bay be able to take to a dirt surface and may have improvement, but he has had a long season and his dewhurst win wasnt exactly vintage looking. I would make america odds on to win next years BCC.
‘Well I am a huge fan of Raven’s and always have been since I first saw him. For some reason known only to myself he reminds me of a very good horse called Right Tack".
The name is familiar but for the life of me a cannot remember the details.Can you help?Thanks
Veering slightly off topic, I noticed HTN’s family tree is riddled with inbreeding on both sides thus making him a son of incestuous union
How good would he have been with three hind legs?I understand there’s a generation proximity rule as to how closely related matches can be, but surely this is not healthy for the thoroughbred gene pool?…and in general
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As I recall, Right Tack was a top class miler, trained by John Sutcliffe Snr and won the 2,000 Guineas and a series of other races – way back, when?
Veering slightly off topic, I noticed HTN’s family tree is riddled with inbreeding on both sides thus making him a son of incestuous union
How good would he have been with three hind legs?I understand there’s a generation proximity rule as to how closely related matches can be, but surely this is not healthy for the thoroughbred gene pool?…and in general
Henrythenavigator is inbred 3X4 Raise A Native, 4X3 Northern Dancer, 4X4 Special. That might make him difficult to breed to, I suppose.
Raven’s Pass, on the other hand, is a complete outcross with no duplications in the first 5 generations.
It will be interesting to see how they do as stallions. My money would be on Raven’s Pass in a match bet, but it’s always odds against a horse being a success at stud, however good a racehorse they may have been.
…I get the feeling though, that some will just trot out the another lame excuse of some sort.
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