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Grand National….are you attending?
Is there anyone else who is going to be in the Platinum County Lounge, if so let me know and we can compare tweed and I’ll give you the winner! <!– s:wink: –>
<!– s:wink: –>If you are questioning my intellect then that is unnecessary. If you are questioning my logic then I will point out to you that he beat a 158 rated horse by 19l over 2m 4f. Nevertheless that 158 rated horse acheived his inflated mark by winning a good ground, seven runner two mile Kerrygold Champion Chase, who in all his previous attempts over 2m 4f had registered only one victory (in a handicap hurdle rated 131) in six tries.
Personally I don’t consider RPR much prefering Official Ratings and his proximity to Denman in a race not run to suit tells me all that I need to know.
RH
Explain. The Listener is NOT a 2m 4f horse. I don’t see why that is nonsense. His best performances against superior opposition has come over 3 miles.
I want to see a competetive Gold Cup, don’t you?
For some to say The Listener is a 2m 4f horse is non sensical (on another thread). Yes he has won over 2m 4f and he did it fantastically well but the thing with The Listener is that he is not so unlike the two leading players in as much that he has shown great versatility and the fact that he can win over a variety of trips shows how classy this horse really is and is more than worthy of his place besides Denman, KS and ED. The Listener and indeed Mossbank have had Denman off the bridle and that was with Denman being allowed to dicate the race how best suited to him.
Unless you fancy re-mortgaging there is no value in this race and all we can hope for is that a fairly decent handicapper like Halcon or even Chelsea Harbour plug on for a place and really if they remain fit next year I’m sure it will be much more of the same, as this year’s novices so far don’t look like making the grade.
Dave Nevison is from my hometown Sevenoaks which as some of you may know is one of the most affluent areas of the UK and thankfully only has a very small number of Chavs.
I watched the preview programme too and he rather swamped the more informative Mark Howard I thought. Some of things he said made me feel a little uncomfortable in particular calling some horses muppets. Why use such derogatory terms to describe an animal that ultimately provides you with a living? Unnecessary. He also said Oscar Park will not complete the RSA Chase. He may well be right but as Dempsey proved last year you shouldn’t be put off a class horse because you think he will fall.
I think there were better people RUK could have had on but I don’t think he’s a chav.
He’s still one of the few horses to have given Denman a race and therefore I would prefer to see him in the Gold Cup but the Ryanair has tempted connections away when in a previous year before its upgrade it would not have done and that can only be a bad thing for the future of the Gold Cup. Surely you must see where I’m coming from.
I am entrenched with regards to whether The Listener will stay or not but looking back that wasn’t the point I was trying to make when beginning this thread. The Ryanair must be reverted back.
But that doesn’t answer my question as to why the same doesn’t happen in Ireland on anywhere near the same sort of scale. They must surely have the same problems as here in the UK but they don’t doll of their fences. Why is that??????
What you must also remember is that horseracing needs gambling to survive and if punters spend there money on a race where they expect 20 fences to be jumped, base their decision on the fact that 20 fences are to be jumped then I can see why they are a bit miffed if half of them are not. They’re are not going to get their money back and the fact that a horse/jockey may have escaped injury is not their main concern. That is not to say that is my personal opinion but it is certainly true of some but not necessarily on here (diplomacy is difficult isn’t it!).
Salselon
The comment re a two runner GC was not aimed at you personally. Don’t take offence. That was just a general throw it out there comment to anyone who thinks that the Ryanair is the best addition to the Festival. I was just trying to paint a very nasty, if unlikely, picture!
Regards
Kendal
Kendal…
Breeding does not ‘of course’ determine whether a horse stays or not. It is, at best, an indicator.
Your argument is flimsy because of the above assertion.
If you can’t understand that rather obvious concept, then … .
There is no evidence to dissuade me with regards to The Listener. He wasn’t given the best ride last year and wasn’t able to quicken off a slow pace. Like all of his relatives he is one paced but his is a very decent one pace. I have seen nothing in his visual form that says he most definitely will not stay 3m 2f and his pedigree confirms that he should.
Lastly I can’t think of one Roselier gelding from a Strong Gale mare that hasn’t stayed over three miles. There was the ill fated Rosslea, he stayed. Fork Lightning, Cheeky Lady, Knight Templar, Hersov and Arnold Layne. Not that flimsy really, well I don’t think. Can you name me one that didn’t stay over three miles? I’ve gone blank!
Well if you want a throw back to the Arkle/Mill House Gold Cups fair enough with two who frighten everything else off except two or three no hopers who are along for a jolly. That’s not my idea of a great race and if another race is taking participants away from the Gold Cup then personally, and it’s only an opinion, I don’t think that’s healthy for the future of the so called Blue Ribband.
Imagine if they both came down and one of Fergus Wilson’s won. Now that would be fantastic!!!
If that’s the worst argument you have ever heard then I must sadly question your ability to tell the truth. I suspect you have heard far worse if you are completely truthful to both me and indeed yourself.
Wasn’t Andrew Thornton jocked off The Listener for his ride on him at Sandown behind Star De Mohaison for not dictating the pace of the race. He stayed on up the Sandown hill ok to my eye. He’s won twice around the undulations of Leopardstown.
He has run once over 3m 2f and you are basing your theory on whether he stays that distance on that run and a completley different race where he was overhauled on bottomless ground, yet he has come out since and won over same course and distance.
I think I can safely say based on his pedigree that he can and will stay 3m 2f. The same theory was used when Royal Emperor was an unlucky 3rd over 4m 1f at Ayr, his brother winning over 4m at Kelso. The same theory was employed with Tipsy Mouse winner over 4m like his brother Royal Athlete. I could go on but apparently it is a non-sensical argument which is why the bloodstock industry is worth so little!
Distant Thunder, Fork Lightning, Offshore Account and Moving Earth all related to The Listener tell me that he will stay. I believe it and I guess that’s all that matters.
I was thinking of Bothar Na for last year’s race but then I thought if he wasn’t good enough to win the Foxhunter’s around Aintree then he couldn’t win the National.
His dam is full of stamina but he just doesn’t look like a marathon stayer. I think that surprised Mullins a lot. I read his comments after the weights were published and he always thought of him as a National horse but has had to change his mind after last year’s effort when really there were no excuses for him.
I would think not, sorry. Even Ossmoses will be lucky to get in, although I think he may just make it.
But the Festival doesn’t now answer all of the questions we want answered. We were still left wondering who was better out of BJK and Nicanor. I think we may well know now but it wasn’t decided at Prestbury Park. We may still not find out who is truly better out of Kauto and Denman (who knows Neptune or Halcon may have a say) as who is going to dictate the pace of the race now that The Listener is going for the Ryanair? I want to know if KS will truly stay 3m 2f in a fastly run Gold Cup.
Is anyone looking forward to the Gold Cup the most out of all the races this year? I know I’m not.
Could you imagine them missing out a fence in the National? All hell would break loose.
What I find strange about the whole missing out of fences is that in Ireland you very very rarely see it happen. A jockey and/or a horse must be in a pretty bad shape for it to happen and even then some decide to jump over the stricken jock/animal!
My biggest bugbear however is the term "false ground". What the bloody hell is false ground. Ireland has so much rain it can almost be termed pluvial and yet with all their bad weather you never see a fence dolled off. The horses have to swim round some courses but they jump every fence far more often than we do over here. Is it a jockey thing? Maybe. But a lot ride in both Ireland and the UK. Perhaps in Ireland they are made of sterner stuff and would be seen as "wimpish" if they were to remark on the sun, false ground etc.
I’m still not convinced. To say The Listener doesn’t stay is ludicrous. He’s by Roselier out of a Strong Gale mare, of course he will stay 3m 2f. His brother won the William Hill at the Festival and his half brother Distant Thunder almost did the same last year.
Last year’s race wasn’t run to suit and he doesn’t have the finishing speed to cope with the likes of Kauto Star at the end of a slowly run race. He is a relentless galloper and needs to gallop the speed out of his rivals, which I believe he can do with KS but maybe Denman is a stronger galloper than him.
It also doesn’t explain why we were denied the chance to see BJK, Denman & Nicanor in the same race. My point is that some of the new races DO mean that some horses can sidestep a race for what is believed to be a much easier option and surely that is not what we want in our version of the Olympics. That would be like having a 600m race allowing those who didn’t quite last 800m but weren’t quite quick enough for 400m the chance to win a Gold Medal, which I think is wrong. Why change something to pander to a few. And the distance of the Ryanair, 2m 5f. Well I thought the race was designed to be a championship for 2m 4f horses. A furlong can make ALL the difference in a race especially with an uphill finish so the race is not what it claims to be. Our Vic can stay perfectly well in a Reynoldstown over 3m and a Charlie Hall over 3m 1f, The Listener can stay perfectly well over 3m at Puncestown and Leopardstown which has a equally stiff uphill finish and 3m 1f at Sandown. I want to see Kauto Star and Denman take on the best 3 mile chasers we have to offer.
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