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We all make boobs we don’t like to talk about and I doubt if anyone on here only has they bets they post.I wanna talk about value do you wanna talk about value? could be interesting
In fact I here it could be everythingI just can’t have Secretariat as the greatest. Losing five times, once to a five year old handicapper, and winning on the same type of track on flat, oval, dirt surfaces ( mainly ) besmirches any true claim to being considered "the greatest" in my eyes. He mainly met horses who were either non stayers ( Sham ) or ones with who lacked the requisite class to trouble him. Secretariat liked to bully horses into submission. On those occasions when he didn’t get his own way, or whether due to tactical reasons, he threw the towel in and relented.
Frankel, on the other hand is much the superior racehorse in every way – although the fact that he did not attempt ( wisely, in my opinion ) a mile and half leaves the unanswered question as to whether he would have beaten the likes of Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Nijinsky or Sea The Stars over that distance.
At a mile and a quarter, that same doubt still remains. Would Frankel have been able to quicken past Mill Reef so readily on yesterday’s ground at Ascot over the 10 furlongs ? <!– s:? –>
<!– s:? –>However, I do concur with many others who say that Frankel had no equal over a mile. I have said many times that only Brigadier Gerard had the raw ability ( and determination ) to have run Frankel close over both horses favourite distance.
The deciding factor being that Frankel could sustain his finishing burst for longer.
Frankel is a legend, no matter what. It will be a very long time before we see his likes again.
The fact Secretariat lost takes nothing away from him his campaign was a much tougher ask than Frankel’s running race after race.
He lost his first race which means nothing and was disqop in another. His next defeat never came until he was beaten by his own pacemaker and Sham and was found to have an abscess in his mouth less than 2 weeks later he won the Kentucky Derby hardly getting his own way, being dropped out last he cut through the field like a knife through butter and smashed the course record which still stands today.
He then as we all know went on to win the Triple Crown. Perhaps the opposition wasnt great with Sham being a non stayer I don’t know but what I do know is they hadn’t gone a mile which Sham did stay and Secrteriat was going so fast Sham simply couldn’t go with him and like Excelebration and Frankel when he tried to lie up with him Sham burst like a baloon. However Secretariat with nothing to race against went on to clock an amazing time knocking 2 seconds of the record The fastest time in history on dirt. To say the course was prepared for him so he could break the record is nonsense Turcott made his decision to let the horse do his thing after a furlong and everyone including the trainer according to the Documentary thought he’d lost his mind. The track record meant nothing winning the Triple Crown after all the years no horse could meant everything.
He then ran again winning easily at which stage most trainers would have said that’s enough but greed set in and Secretariat was back on the track within 3 weeks when he ran a lifeless race but still they continued and within 3 weeks he was back on the track again. He ran his heart out, won and unbelievable set another world record for the trip.
Surely it was now time to call it a day but not a bit of it they ran the horse again 2 weeks later on a track that was in condition described as sloppy lost again. What the hell he’s only a horse so they ran him again 8 days later in the Man O War. Bad enough they were asking him to run again he was also running on turf on firm ground for the first time in his life……Secretariat took it in his stride and broke yet another track record.
Everyone wanted a piece of Secretariat TV racing had begun and all sorts off offer were flying in and 3 weeks later Secretariat was in Canada in what was to be his final race. They tried to beat Secretariat using the tactics you mantion but he just laughed at them and won by 6 1/2 lengths
I don’t believe Penny Chenery had a bad bone in her body she believed Secretariat loved racing and should run as often as he could but she was so wrong they are not machines and even Secretariat found 12 races in 7 months beyond him.
If he had been trained in Europe by someone like Aiden O’Brien to think what he could have done campaigned more considerately is mind boggling.
He spent half his time in a horse box traveling and was asked much more than the likes of Frankel and Sea Bird ever were and still managed to smash record after record and win 16 races.
To be honest I don’t care about ratings they are meaningless it’s all about the wow factor that the Frankel’s Mill Reef’s Nijisnsky’s, Sea Birds of the world had. The don’t have to win Arc’s to get the heart pumping just think Zenyatta and the buzz from Chelsea to Churchill Downs she created was even more than Frankel did and he’d have eaten her alive.
But as I say it is not about ratings it’s about Greatness and the wow! factor and for nothing comes near to that unbelievable day at Belmont. 31 long looking lengths track record Triple Crown it had it all
Can we really call Frankel a middle distance horse? I’d have thought you’de have to run at all three trips to qualify.
I think Mill Reef is the best 12f horse the UK ever had second to none but Frankel would have murdered him at a mile and 10f on good ground.
Would people please stop talking about Derby’s and Arc’s Frankel was a miler and a 10f horse he never ran at 12furlong but still beat the best around.
We all know he was a free spirit and stepping him up with him being such was fraught with danger. Sir Henry can hardly be called a coward and they could have retried him at 3 he did a great job. No one knew if Frankel would get 12f until York then it was too late with only the Arc left a race Sir Henry has never supported.
Sure he could have gone to the Breeders for another 1/10 pointless win but why? Nothing to gain and one freak accident and million have gone down the sawanee.
Is he the Greatest? No Chance Secretariat was. He’s up there with Sea_Bird I cant split them but definitely ahead of any other horse with the possible exception of Ribot who I can’t comment on as I wasn’t around then.
One things for sure he was bloody good!!!
I hope at least a few of you took the little bit of the 4/1 on the machine………plenty 7/2 available earlier but most are offering 9/4 and 2/1 now.
Still has to do the hard bit and win but at least the info was right
Will it be Cheltenham or Hexam for Spirit of Shankly? we’ll soon know ?
With the benefit of hindsight my ass Ginger I told you you were stone mad beforehand.
Really mate there’s a want with you…..how many races were there yesterday? and you go up against Frankel…..if that ain’t someone craving for attention I don’t know what is.
Plus FIST never CONVENIENTLY forgot you backed bugger all
Can’t you count for ***** sake?
Your outlay for the day was 267 points your return 398.66 which equates to 131 points profit which
is under 1/2
on the cash you laid out.
Like any dutcher most of the time overall you are betting at odds on even if it doesn’t seem so at the time if you weren’t your profits would be sky high which they are not.
I thank you for the apology
In the meantime back at the ranch Fist is having one of his rare large bets today on Charlie Longsdon’s Spirit OF Shankley? This horse is a machine and possibly the best CL has ever trained and will hack up first time over hurdles today……I’ll be on before you lot wake up
ZzzzzzzzzzzI waiting for some info to be confirmed in Oz should be starting my new thread soon……should be fun and stop me having too many biggies.
Happy Punting all
Wish to hell it would hurry up with Frankel gone the flat season is about as interesting as watching paint dry…no Zentta’s to get excited about at the Breeders and The Melbourne Cup a handicap full of unknown quantities isn’t my cup of tea.
We’ll be fine bud if you’re an SS fan you’re ok by me
I don’t expect my views to meet with much agreement, considering that almost the whole racing community seems to have been brainwashed into believing the Frankel hype. but I thank God this nonsense is now over.
To my way of thinking, he is simply a very good horse at his distance who has beaten everything put in front of him, but I doubt very much the quality of the opposition he has faced (when compared with the great Brigadier Gerard, for example), and I think that connections have been totally unadventurous with him.
No doubt he will go down as "the horse of the century" or "the greatest horse of all time", but to me, that is pure hype designed to boost his stud value.He has never raced beyond 10 furlongs, never raced against a truly international field and never really ever been tested outside his comfort zone, to see what he really would have been capable of.
Good horse yes – greatest horse of all time ? – not in my book.
Brainwashed? I hardly think so…I’ve been all over Timeofrm at times with some would be superstars they give ratings to and so have many others on here.
Do the BHA and Timeform get anything out of it if Frankel,s stud value goes through the roof? They have rated him the best of all time (Which I don’t 100% agree with)It was them who pushed Frankel to the Top not Sir Henry Cecil or the media.
If anything Sir Henry was slow to admit Frankel was the best he has ever seen when the subject first came up all he would say was he was his best horse since Wollow.
You say he never raced against a truly International field like who what where?
I saw every race the Brigadier ran I’d like to know which performance you think he put up that even comes close to Frankel’s demolition job of Excelebration or Farhh . His King George was not a great race by any stretch of the imagination. His main rival Mill Reef not a miler went on to bigger and better things leaving him to win some pretty poor mile races.
You obviously have forgotten how Sparkler ran him to a head and when he scraped home against Rarity or when he won the Eclipse by a diminishing length topped by Roberto beating him fair and square at York. He did win some races by fair distances but way too often did other finish close behind him. He was tough as nails a powerhouse of a horse but I doubt if he’d have coped with Frankel’s instant acceleration.
I think Sir Ivor was one of those horses who was difficult to put a handle on. Not the greatest of all time but not the worst.
As far as Frankel goes he’s easy he was so outstanding you couldn’t help but wonder would any horse have beaten him at 1 mile or 10 furlongs for that matter on good ground.
He was to my mind as good at a mile as Sea-Bird was at 12 furlong but to say he was actually better is some call to be making.
Two completely different types and as much as I like Frankel I reckon the only real reason he ousted Se-Bird is because he’s todays news. I would have been much happier had they put them both on the same ranking as I couldn’t for the life of me split them
As Far as Sir Ivor’s finishing speed in comparison to others is concerned he probably looked quicker than he actually was. He had an engine ok but he was far superior to most of those he beat Lester would sit and take the piss Sir Ivor barely out of a canter then time his finishing burst to perfection. Truth is half the time he could have gone sooner and cruised past them but Lester wash a showman if ever there was one and unlike the Jamie Spencers of the world he very seldom got it wrong. Sir Ivor in the Arc was never ever going to get to Vaguely Noble he was pure class unlike those Sir Ivor could treat with contempt and for once the finishing burst wasn’t there.
I think someone must have been watching a different horse than me when Mill Reef was at his best. Brough Scot I think it was said his whole career in racing hinged on Mill Reef winning the Grand Criterium and when Geoff Lewis asked him to quicken that day he took off like a bat out off hell and won by a massive 15lengths in a performance that would have made Rock of Gibralter look slow. The Derby the Arc The King George were all awesome performances he was a machine and IMO like Fabre’s I’d have to put him ahead of the Brigadier despite the Guineas.
They were to meet again in The King George but Mill Reef fractured a leg and had to be retired. Watching the Brigadier win that day that performance as good as it was looked tame compared to Mill Reef’s performances yet Timeform gave him a higher rating. The race is on youtube and nothing else bar Parnell raised a gallop that day and wer all beaten 4 urlongs from home. BG took forever and a day to pass Parnell hung across him and it wasn’t anything like the high class performance they cracked it up to be.
To be fair he was best at a mile but he was given his highest rating in the King George which I to this day couldn’t agree with. Mill Reef to me was the better horse overall.
When I was posting selections on Plays and lays as the races happened it always seemed to be on ago slow around 3pm with me for about 30-45 mins then it would go back to normal. During that time I’d have Betfair S/life and Timeform Radio open and none of them were giving me problems. Not saying it’s this site as I have no idea how the net actually works I’m a long way from home and it could easily be my end that has the problem
I’m sitting her laughing my head off at you two.
Gord say he knows he’s running for 2nd at best and has 150 quid ew on Nathaniel.
Had he been 2nd he would have won 210 quid for 300 invested but had he done the sensible thing his return would have been + 570 quid backing him for a place only.
Of all the horses in the world to oppose Ginge you oppose Frankel and you come on here like you actually know what your doing.
Both of you back in September 2010 suggested opposing him in the Guineas Gordon saying he looked like a square box despite the fact he had backed the same square box at33/1 to win the Derby and Ginge in his wisdom told everyone how good he was then suggested Frankel as a saver and Dream Ahead as the main bet………
That value is a killer at timesOn the same thread my very words were
Sept 2010 Fist said
"This horse IMVHO could topple Sea Bird II as the highest rated horse of all time"
That raised a few laughs but they ain’t laughing now.
You are both good at times sometimes even outstanding although my vote as a good judge would go to Gord who has tipped some amazing winner without backing half the field….but then Ginge never fails to make a few bob but will never be rich whereas Gord is very likely to have a huge lift one day by doubling some of his uncanny selection and cleaning some poor bookie out.
However sometime you both talk so much shyte and make bets that no sane person would ever consider and it’s laughable.
Nice to see we are all getting on a bit better and that you have both accepted I am the Greatest tipster in the world? I did mention that before didn’t I? Can’t have you guys forgetting
If he did exist he’d slap you right across the chops for ruining what could have been a great day for you yesterday. You took the best 2 horses in Europe and opposed them
Overall you got 1.5 about you selections for the day, us blessed ones got 2.59 net on thee holy double.May your God go with you
I was a kid but I loved that horse. I can remember backing him to win the Arc lying on the carpet in our living room and thumping my fists on the floor and cursing when Vaguely Noble beat him……..He was a joy to watch.
Rory might correct me on this but I think he was the second UK horse ever to go for the Washington International the first being Super Sam. There was a bit of a fuss kicked up by some clown of a reporter about the way Lester rode him.
The leaders had kicked for home quite a long way out and Lester decided to take a pull and drop back to last when the break occurred, sat for minute before starting to cut through them like a knife through butter timing it to perfection….Apparently to be so far back and win wasn’t a regular occurrence over there at that time and this guy called Lester a bum jockey
Lester on several occasions has named Sir Ivor as the best he ever rode but he’s said that about Nijinsky and some close friend of his said Lester reckoned Rheingold was the best he ever rode. Was probably his cell mate
Forget the rest and just watching Frankel compared to York he was never at anytime traveling like we know he can. He cam from way back there without TQ doing as much as blowing in his ear.
I just watched both videos of him going down to the start and he didn’t look to be as full off himself today as he was at York where he went down like a bouncing ball.
And then he has to be pushed out of the stalls? Normally the second the gate opens he flies out.
It may well be all the crap weather you guys have been having had him feeling not quite himself or maybe it was just the ground but one things for sure he’s run well below par but never at anytime was he in any danger of getting beat.
TQ rode a very sensible race and kept him well balanced rode a race on him, gave him a couple of cracks to make sure but there wasn’t any real need.
Ginger reckons they’d be they’ll be glad the never went to the Arc, I reckon it’s more likely they’ll thinking down the way and be thanking their lucky star they never stayed at a mile. The way Frankel ran today and the way Excelebration performed he might well have had a closer call….the times would indicate Frankel may well have been beaten
However he won despite not being at his glorious best. He was never beaten unlike many other past greats ..Frankel was without doubt a True Champion.
Happy retirement
Sad to see him go but cheer up lads there’s another Superstar from Seven Barrows who will keep us every bit as well entertained through the winter months
We all make boobs we don’t like to talk about and I doubt if anyone on here only has they bets they post.
In fact I here it could be everything
<!– s:? –>
That value is a killer at times
Overall you got 1.5 about you selections for the day, us blessed ones got 2.59 net on thee holy double.