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In my view timeform did great injustice to Sir Ivor rating him just 135.Lester Piggot rated Sir Ivor to be the best horse he had ridden ,even ahead of Nijinsky.Piggot felt,that Nijinsky had greater natural ability but was not as tough as Sir Ivor.In the 1968 Epsom Derby Sir Ivor gave the greatest display of finishing speed seen in the Derby since the War and arguably by any winner till this day.He reminded one of a rocket taking off into the air.He also devoured great horses like Petingo with the same devastating finishing burst in the 2000 Guineas.What counted against Sir Ivor were his succesive defeats in the Irish Derby,Eclipse and Arc.Vaguely Noble beat him convincingly by 3 lengths in the 1968 Arc.However he rounded of the season brilliantly winning the Washington International from stalwarts like Karabas,Camarthen,Fort Marcy and Czar Alexander.Since Payprus in 1923 he became the 1st Epsom Derby winner to win abroad.After such a hard season it was tribute to the great resilience of this colt.
Where would Sir Ivor rank in the pantheon of greats?Was he a true all time great?Over 10 furlongs to me he would rank with Mill Reef or Nijinsky and could have beaten Vaguely Noble.The gradient slope at Epsom enables many non-true stayer to win the race and Sir Ivor was not bred or at his best at a mile and a half.Overall I would elevate Sir Ivor’s rating to 138 and place him in the rank of Alleged and rate him marginally ahead of Generous and Troy .
Sir Ivor’s spectacular finishing burst to win great races was something even great’s like Nijinsky or Mill Reef did not display.
Sir , he was a darn good one for sure , having seen him race at the curragh , and having seen Frankel , I have no doubt , Frankel would leave him for dead
Still he was brilliant at the time , owned by an ambassador I seem to remember
Ricky
He was the horse that Ray Guest won a fortune on in anti post bets for the English Derby?
Now that’s what I call a racing programme; ran in 4 different countries, at 3 distances, all at the highest level. Perhaps if he’d remained at a mile and kept beating Petingo you’d remember him more fondly
Now that’s what I call a racing programme; ran in 4 different countries, at 3 distances, all at the highest level. Perhaps if he’d remained at a mile and kept beating Petingo you’d remember him more fondly
Presumably a pop at the connections of Frankel.
Look what he’s done today to the 2nd highest rated horse in the world, on ground that didn’t even suit.
Look at what Excelebration can do when not being thrashed by Frankel.
Perhaps someone took your toys off you when you were a kid.He was clearly a great racehorse.
It’s one of racing fans great joys/problems trying to compare the top animals from different generations, when even handicapping horses from the same generation is not an exact science. Moreover, one tends to think of the top racehorses from ones own "youth" as superior to later, younger upstarts.
So, for what it’s worth after following racing for nigh on 45 years (and trying not to be "my generation" biased ), here are a couple of assertions:-
1) Frankel was superior to Brigadier Gerard
2) The GREATEST performance by a flat racehorse in the UK in this time was not by Brigadier Gerard, Frankel, Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Shergar etc but by…………ROBERTO in his 1972 defeat of Brigadier Gerard in the Benson & Hedges at York. This is not to say that he was the "greatest" racehorse, only that, on this one occasion, he performed at such a level that, perhaps only Frankel at his very best might have challenged him. He never got the credit he deserved for this win; too many pundits trying to find excuses for Brigadier Gerard – none of which wash with me (damn it all, the Brigadier broke the previous course record in finishing second!!!).
I was a kid but I loved that horse. I can remember backing him to win the Arc lying on the carpet in our living room and thumping my fists on the floor and cursing when Vaguely Noble beat him……..He was a joy to watch.
Rory might correct me on this but I think he was the second UK horse ever to go for the Washington International the first being Super Sam. There was a bit of a fuss kicked up by some clown of a reporter about the way Lester rode him.
The leaders had kicked for home quite a long way out and Lester decided to take a pull and drop back to last when the break occurred, sat for minute before starting to cut through them like a knife through butter timing it to perfection….Apparently to be so far back and win wasn’t a regular occurrence over there at that time and this guy called Lester a bum jockey
Lester on several occasions has named Sir Ivor as the best he ever rode but he’s said that about Nijinsky and some close friend of his said Lester reckoned Rheingold was the best he ever rode. Was probably his cell mate
Now that’s what I call a racing programme; ran in 4 different countries, at 3 distances, all at the highest level. Perhaps if he’d remained at a mile and kept beating Petingo you’d remember him more fondly
Presumably a pop at the connections of Frankel.
Look what he’s done today to the 2nd highest rated horse in the world, on ground that didn’t even suit.
Look at what Excelebration can do when not being thrashed by Frankel.
Perhaps someone took your toys off you when you were a kid.I don’t like the general superior sniding that go against anyone who is disappointed how Frankel has been campaigned this season.
I can see both sides of the arguement, he has arguably been handled impeccably because he has won every time.
But he has certainly been handled with little adventure in mind – avoiding The Arc after the Juddmonte stuck in many craws – mine being one.
I think I can point with some confidence at Andre Fabre – he stated Mill Reef was the best in his opinion (prior to Frankel admittedly). Interesting he rated Mill Reef higher than the Brigadier, who beat Mill Reef comprehensively. The aggressive International Campaigning clearly make a difference to some, ‘Little Englanders’ apart.
Or perhaps Mr. Fabre had his toys taken from him as a child also?
I think Sir Ivor was one of those horses who was difficult to put a handle on. Not the greatest of all time but not the worst.
As far as Frankel goes he’s easy he was so outstanding you couldn’t help but wonder would any horse have beaten him at 1 mile or 10 furlongs for that matter on good ground.
He was to my mind as good at a mile as Sea-Bird was at 12 furlong but to say he was actually better is some call to be making.
Two completely different types and as much as I like Frankel I reckon the only real reason he ousted Se-Bird is because he’s todays news. I would have been much happier had they put them both on the same ranking as I couldn’t for the life of me split them
As Far as Sir Ivor’s finishing speed in comparison to others is concerned he probably looked quicker than he actually was. He had an engine ok but he was far superior to most of those he beat Lester would sit and take the piss Sir Ivor barely out of a canter then time his finishing burst to perfection. Truth is half the time he could have gone sooner and cruised past them but Lester wash a showman if ever there was one and unlike the Jamie Spencers of the world he very seldom got it wrong. Sir Ivor in the Arc was never ever going to get to Vaguely Noble he was pure class unlike those Sir Ivor could treat with contempt and for once the finishing burst wasn’t there.
I think someone must have been watching a different horse than me when Mill Reef was at his best. Brough Scot I think it was said his whole career in racing hinged on Mill Reef winning the Grand Criterium and when Geoff Lewis asked him to quicken that day he took off like a bat out off hell and won by a massive 15lengths in a performance that would have made Rock of Gibralter look slow. The Derby the Arc The King George were all awesome performances he was a machine and IMO like Fabre’s I’d have to put him ahead of the Brigadier despite the Guineas.
They were to meet again in The King George but Mill Reef fractured a leg and had to be retired. Watching the Brigadier win that day that performance as good as it was looked tame compared to Mill Reef’s performances yet Timeform gave him a higher rating. The race is on youtube and nothing else bar Parnell raised a gallop that day and wer all beaten 4 urlongs from home. BG took forever and a day to pass Parnell hung across him and it wasn’t anything like the high class performance they cracked it up to be.
To be fair he was best at a mile but he was given his highest rating in the King George which I to this day couldn’t agree with. Mill Reef to me was the better horse overall.
Now that’s what I call a racing programme; ran in 4 different countries, at 3 distances, all at the highest level. Perhaps if he’d remained at a mile and kept beating Petingo you’d remember him more fondly
Presumably a pop at the connections of Frankel.
Look what he’s done today to the 2nd highest rated horse in the world, on ground that didn’t even suit.
Look at what Excelebration can do when not being thrashed by Frankel.
Perhaps someone took your toys off you when you were a kid.I don’t like the general superior sniding that go against anyone who is disappointed how Frankel has been campaigned this season.
I can see both sides of the arguement, he has arguably been handled impeccably because he has won every time.
But he has certainly been handled with little adventure in mind – avoiding The Arc after the Juddmonte stuck in many craws – mine being one.
I think I can point with some confidence at Andre Fabre – he stated Mill Reef was the best in his opinion (prior to Frankel admittedly). Interesting he rated Mill Reef higher than the Brigadier, who beat Mill Reef comprehensively. The aggressive International Campaigning clearly make a difference to some, ‘Little Englanders’ apart.
Or perhaps Mr. Fabre had his toys taken from him as a child also?
Andre Fabre was quoted yesterday as saying that Frankel was the best horse that had ever been bred, and also that he was probably better than Mill Reef who he had previously thought was the best ever.
If both he and Sir Henry can formulate this opinion despite others sniping about not running in the Arc / Breeders Cup etc etc, then that is more than good enough for me.Toys or no toys !
Once again some posters go off on a tangent rather than answering the question, which was,
How great was Sir Ivor ?
Let’s look at the evidence.
Well, according to our old friends, Morris and Randall, Sir Ivor was the 7th best Irish trained horse ever, although Sea The Stars hadn’t set foot on a racecourse when they came up with that opinion – so probably 8th best now.
Sir Ivor ran thirteen times and won eight. He was unplaced on his debut before winning three on the bounce in his first season – his final 2 year old victory coming at Lonchamps in the Grand Criterium.
Won the 2,000 Guineas trial at Ascot prior to winning the big race itself. A warm favourite for the Derby, where he cruised past Sir Noel Murless’s Connaught, who was more of a staying type.
He then finished 2nd at The Curragh to Ribero before finishing third to the previous year’s Derby winner, Royal Palace ( trained by Sir Noel Murless ) in The Eclipse. O’Brien blamed Lester for coming too late. Where have we heard that before ?
Sir Ivor re-appeared at Longchamp, finishing 2nd in his Arc trial before finishing a respectable runner-up to mudlark, Vaguely Noble, in the Arc.
Vincent O’Brien then sent him to Newmarket a fortnight later where he duly won the Champion Stakes – and just to emphasis how tough the Sir Gaylord colt was; O’Brien took the colt across the big pond to face a small, select field in the Washington International, where, under a Royal Academy-esque ride from Lester, Sir Ivor flew him to scoop the prize.
Was he a great ? Definitely ! Was he better than Nijinsky – imo , No !
* Interesting trivial sidenote : did you know that Sir Ivor won his Derby on the same day that Manchester United won their first European Cup at Wembley – 29th May, 1968 !
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
SIR IVOR
Record: 13 Starts: 8 – 3 – 1, $561,323Won: Grand Criterium (FR), National S. (IRE), Probationers’ Stks (IRE), Washington D. C. International Invitational, Epsom Derby (ENG), Champion Stks (ENG), English 2000 Guineas (ENG), 2000 Guineas Trial (ENG)
2ND Irish Sweeps Derby (Ire), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (Fr), Prix Henry Delamarre (Fr).
3RD Eclipse Stakes (Eng).
I give that a big yes!
Sir Ivor was before my time (being 5 to 6 year old when he ran, depending on the race we’re talking about) however after watching a DVD about him, yes he had a great finish but I think it was the jockey (Piggott) who made the difference.
In the Irish Derby Piggott was replaced by their number one jockey who rode for them in Ireland and Piggott rode Ribero. I think Piggott could have ridden both horses and won on them.
The Eclipse Stake he lost out to older horses (previous derby winner), finishing a respectable third, and the Arc he had to use his superior finishing speed to keep up and then finish a close second to a horse (Oaks winner) who had this race planned for her.
He finished at Washington were Piggott used his excellent finishing speed to win at Laurel Park, Maryland.
IMO
I became interested in racing the year Sir Ivor won the derby, and he made quite an impact on me! I’d never seen anything like his tremendous last furlong sprint in the derby, ‘making up’, said Raceform Notebook, ‘six lengths to fly past Connaught as if he was standing still’. So it came as quite a shock to see him beaten in his next race the Irish Derby.
Lester did not ride him that day, and his Irish jockey did not seem to be concerned about conserving Sir Ivor for the same type of burst as was seen in the derby, possibly thinking he had proved he stayed, and perhaps over confident too. Ridden as he was he seemed to be outstayed by the future St Ledger winner Ribero.
After that his career seemed to go downhill. In the Eclipse he was beaten by the previous Derby and 2000g winner Royal Palace and Taj Dewan. Royal Palace may well have won the Triple Crown if not injured, and was to later win the King George despite breaking down in the last furlong so was no mug, but Sir Ivor was expected to beat him and was made odds-on.
Further defeats followed when reappearing in an Arc trial and then the Arc itself. The Arc de Triomphe was that year run in testing conditions and I think it was no disgrace being beaten by a top class stayer in Vaguely Noble who revelled in those conditions.
Sir Ivor’s final two races saw him return to the mood and panache of his Derby win. Made odds-on for the Champion Stakes despite meeting old rival Taj Dewan, it was no contest this time as he cruised home to an easy win. On to the Washington International and a blitzing burst of speed in the stretch to fly past Czar Alexander for a memorable win and a fitting climax to his career.
I say a fitting climax to Sir Ivor’s career, but I really think he needed to run as a 4yo to establish just how good he was. He was probably not at his best after the Derby and should have beaten Royal Palace in the Eclipse while Vaguely Noble had everything in his favour in the Arc. As it stands I would have to say he falls short of the highest echelons. If he had beaten Royal Palace decisively, then yes he was one of the greats, but four consecutive defeats take the gloss off him.
How a horse runs in the Derby is no way to judge a horse.The Derby does not suit the super horses and should not be used to rate them.The Derby is an up and down course which requires horses to change leads,to conserve energy and often one will misjudge them as a result.It is also a tilted track which requires a horse to have great balance and superhorses are never required to be perfectly balanced.The hills at Epsom requires great heart and super horses should not be tested in this manner. The Derby is a mile and four furlongs and a super horse should never be subject to such a trial.So better nor use such a race to determin whether a horse is great or not.The greatest trainers support this analysis and refuse to race their great horses in such a race.
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