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I just can’t have Secretariat as the greatest. Losing five times, once to a five year old handicapper, and winning on the same type of track on flat, oval, dirt surfaces ( mainly ) besmirches any true claim to being considered "the greatest" in my eyes. He mainly met horses who were either non stayers ( Sham ) or ones with who lacked the requisite class to trouble him. Secretariat liked to bully horses into submission. On those occasions when he didn’t get his own way, or whether due to tactical reasons, he threw the towel in and relented.
Frankel, on the other hand is much the superior racehorse in every way – although the fact that he did not attempt ( wisely, in my opinion ) a mile and half leaves the unanswered question as to whether he would have beaten the likes of Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Nijinsky or Sea The Stars over that distance.
At a mile and a quarter, that same doubt still remains. Would Frankel have been able to quicken past Mill Reef so readily on yesterday’s ground at Ascot over the 10 furlongs ?
However, I do concur with many others who say that Frankel had no equal over a mile. I have said many times that only Brigadier Gerard had the raw ability ( and determination ) to have run Frankel close over both horses favourite distance.
The deciding factor being that Frankel could sustain his finishing burst for longer.
Frankel is a legend, no matter what. It will be a very long time before we see his likes again.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Excelebration
was visually more impressive than
Frankel
yesterday and yet he has been beaten all 5 times they have met by an average of 5 lengths per beating!What definately caught the Champion out was Heavy ground over 11/4m,his class got him home but the formbook tells you beating ‘Cirrus des aigles’ 13/4l is about what
Snow Fairy
would have done so yesterdays result certainly went the right way but it was far from his usual impressive self.That said god knows what his Pacemaker was playing at and his tardy start did him no favours.He’s been an Ambassador for Flat racing this year which imo has been decidedly just that and I’m relieved he kept his 14 run unbeaten record intact.He is again imo ‘The Greatest Miler Ever’ ‘Excelebration’ hasn’t just sprouted wings,that was a performance from a proper Group 1 Miler himself,it certainly begs the question..’What would ‘Frankel’ have done in that race??.’Frankel’ got 11/4m stood on his head and I’m sure he would have got 11/2m on Good Ground but if there was one inkling of weakness to be taken from yesterdays performance it was he wouldn’t get it on that sort of ground,it made a somewhat out of focus picture just that little bit clearer as to just how versatile he really was.
As I suspect is the case of most of you, I can only go by the grainy out of focus B/W pictures for previous greats like Ribot, Relko, Sea Bird etc. So I couldn’t really judge Frankel with those horses.
I was still at primary school when Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard were the bees knees and so only have vague recollections of them, although there is a fair bit of decent video evidence of their exploits.
I suppose the nearest to compare Frankel with of those three would be Brigadier Gerard as the others were more staying types. I would have to say overall Frankel’s form is superior.
I would have Excelebration as a better miler than anything Brigadier Gerard beat Sparkler, Dictus and Faraway Son were genuine G1 horses and pretty much of similar ability but Excelebration is clearly beyond any question the 2nd best miler about at the minute and is in my opinion as good as any others over the last ten years including, Rock of Gibraltar, Goldikova and Canford Cliffs.
That Frankel is so far ahead of him in my opinion marks Frankel as the greatest miler in my lifetime.
In only 2 starts over 10F Frankel proved just as good, slamming 3 G1 winners by 7L and more at York. In adverse conditions at Ascot he beat 4 G1 winners, the runner-up is the 2nd highest rated horse in the world Frankel beat the reigning champ under his optimum conditions giving up a good 4L lengths at the start cruised by him on the bit a furlong out and pulled comfortably clear despite showing signs of tiredness close home.
It’s diffucult to compare him with 12F horses but to me the form he showed at shorter distances is clearly superior than any other horse has achieved over any trip other trip, so he goes down in my opinion as the greatest I’ve ever seen in 40 years of watching racing.I just can’t have Secretariat as the greatest. Losing five times, once to a five year old handicapper, and winning on the same type of track on flat, oval, dirt surfaces ( mainly ) besmirches any true claim to being considered "the greatest" in my eyes. He mainly met horses who were either non stayers ( Sham ) or ones with who lacked the requisite class to trouble him. Secretariat liked to bully horses into submission. On those occasions when he didn’t get his own way, or whether due to tactical reasons, he threw the towel in and relented.
Frankel, on the other hand is much the superior racehorse in every way – although the fact that he did not attempt ( wisely, in my opinion ) a mile and half leaves the unanswered question as to whether he would have beaten the likes of Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Nijinsky or Sea The Stars over that distance.
At a mile and a quarter, that same doubt still remains. Would Frankel have been able to quicken past Mill Reef so readily on yesterday’s ground at Ascot over the 10 furlongs ? <!– s:? –>
<!– s:? –>However, I do concur with many others who say that Frankel had no equal over a mile. I have said many times that only Brigadier Gerard had the raw ability ( and determination ) to have run Frankel close over both horses favourite distance.
The deciding factor being that Frankel could sustain his finishing burst for longer.
Frankel is a legend, no matter what. It will be a very long time before we see his likes again.
The fact Secretariat lost takes nothing away from him his campaign was a much tougher ask than Frankel’s running race after race.
He lost his first race which means nothing and was disqop in another. His next defeat never came until he was beaten by his own pacemaker and Sham and was found to have an abscess in his mouth less than 2 weeks later he won the Kentucky Derby hardly getting his own way, being dropped out last he cut through the field like a knife through butter and smashed the course record which still stands today.
He then as we all know went on to win the Triple Crown. Perhaps the opposition wasnt great with Sham being a non stayer I don’t know but what I do know is they hadn’t gone a mile which Sham did stay and Secrteriat was going so fast Sham simply couldn’t go with him and like Excelebration and Frankel when he tried to lie up with him Sham burst like a baloon. However Secretariat with nothing to race against went on to clock an amazing time knocking 2 seconds of the record The fastest time in history on dirt. To say the course was prepared for him so he could break the record is nonsense Turcott made his decision to let the horse do his thing after a furlong and everyone including the trainer according to the Documentary thought he’d lost his mind. The track record meant nothing winning the Triple Crown after all the years no horse could meant everything.
He then ran again winning easily at which stage most trainers would have said that’s enough but greed set in and Secretariat was back on the track within 3 weeks when he ran a lifeless race but still they continued and within 3 weeks he was back on the track again. He ran his heart out, won and unbelievable set another world record for the trip.
Surely it was now time to call it a day but not a bit of it they ran the horse again 2 weeks later on a track that was in condition described as sloppy lost again. What the hell he’s only a horse so they ran him again 8 days later in the Man O War. Bad enough they were asking him to run again he was also running on turf on firm ground for the first time in his life……Secretariat took it in his stride and broke yet another track record.
Everyone wanted a piece of Secretariat TV racing had begun and all sorts off offer were flying in and 3 weeks later Secretariat was in Canada in what was to be his final race. They tried to beat Secretariat using the tactics you mantion but he just laughed at them and won by 6 1/2 lengths
I don’t believe Penny Chenery had a bad bone in her body she believed Secretariat loved racing and should run as often as he could but she was so wrong they are not machines and even Secretariat found 12 races in 7 months beyond him.
If he had been trained in Europe by someone like Aiden O’Brien to think what he could have done campaigned more considerately is mind boggling.
He spent half his time in a horse box traveling and was asked much more than the likes of Frankel and Sea Bird ever were and still managed to smash record after record and win 16 races.
To be honest I don’t care about ratings they are meaningless it’s all about the wow factor that the Frankel’s Mill Reef’s Nijisnsky’s, Sea Birds of the world had. The don’t have to win Arc’s to get the heart pumping just think Zenyatta and the buzz from Chelsea to Churchill Downs she created was even more than Frankel did and he’d have eaten her alive.
But as I say it is not about ratings it’s about Greatness and the wow! factor and for nothing comes near to that unbelievable day at Belmont. 31 long looking lengths track record Triple Crown it had it all
I’ve lurked on this forum for an age and have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone’s input throughout the last few months , and certainly most people are better informed than I am, so I wouldn’t dare opiniate. However, I don’t remember seeing any horse look so happy and at ease in running as Frankel, and one poster summed it up for me in a post where they said that Frankel’s attitude screams, ‘Isn’t running fast absolutely brilliant’. Thats the picture of him that will live on in my memory, and yes, because of that I think when I think ‘greatest’ he will come to mind.
ETA. I agree with some Secretariat comparisons. Looking at the vids, he seemed to have the same sort of enthusiasm and even a similar action.
It doesn’t just take talent to be undefeated, it takes a whole lot of luck. Great horses do lose races.
Man O’War’s only loss came after facing backwards at the start.
Sysonby’s only loss came after a rival trainer poisoned/drugged his feed
Zenyatta’s only loss came after The Worst Ride Ever.
For Frankel to have avoided any mishaps, to overcome any jockey error, traffic trouble, bad breaks, injury, etc. is incredible.Am I alone in feeling a bit down today?
I was watching the replay just now as TQ was cantering in front of the stands soaking up the appreciation of the crowd and I looked at Frankel and just thought "what is he going to do now?"
Looking at him it is so obvious that this horse was born to race. He loves running. The thought of him munching hay and getting fat in the paddock made me feel sad. Seems a waste. I actually felt really sorry for the horse. Never again will he get to do what he plainly loves to do. Never again will he be able to show off that amazing speed. Never again will he be urged to put his head down and run for his life. Will he miss it do you think?
I know that this is the way of things on the flat but I have never felt it so acutely as with this horse. Of course he is going to have a great time with all those mares but 26 months seems such a short career for one so blessed with talent.
Perhaps it is the Sunday blues and I am prepared to get slated for saying it but I genuinely feel a loss today.
Life will go on. Racing will go on. But I wonder – is that as good as it will ever be? I fear for me it probably is.
Great memories to take to my grave though and better to have loved and lost than not loved at all.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Jonibake, he’ll be fine. Colts usually start getting pretty unraceable as they mature anyway, and thank god he has gone whilst at the top of his game rather than on the way down. Although I agree it all seems a bit of anti climax right now.
Personally I’m already beginning to look forward to progeny-watch
Jonibake, he’ll be fine.
Colts usually start getting pretty unraceable as they mature anyway,
and thank god he has gone whilst at the top of his game rather than on the way down. Although I agree it all seems a bit of anti climax right now.
Personally I’m already beginning to look forward to progeny-watchYeats didn’t look unraceable winning his 4th Ascot Gold Cup.
Countless stallions have raced to age 7,8,9, even 10 years of age. It’s not that big of a deal to race a 5yo.Jonibake, he’ll be fine.
Colts usually start getting pretty unraceable as they mature anyway,
and thank god he has gone whilst at the top of his game rather than on the way down. Although I agree it all seems a bit of anti climax right now.
Personally I’m already beginning to look forward to progeny-watchYeats didn’t look unraceable winning his 4th Ascot Gold Cup.
Countless stallions have raced to age 7,8,9, even 10 years of age. It’s not that big of a deal to race a 5yo.Sshhhhh I was trying to console Jonibake, thats all
I’ve lurked on this forum for an age and have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone’s input throughout the last few months , and certainly most people are better informed than I am, so I wouldn’t dare opiniate. However, I don’t remember seeing any horse look so happy and at ease in running as Frankel, and one poster summed it up for me in a
post where they said that Frankel’s attitude screams, ‘Isn’t running fast absolutely brilliant’
. Thats the picture of him that will live on in my memory, and yes, because of that I think when I think ‘greatest’ he will come to mind.
ETA. I agree with some Secretariat comparisons. Looking at the vids, he seemed to have the same sort of enthusiasm and even a similar action.
You’ve got a very good long-term memory. Just over two years. I just have a narcissistic streak that allows me to hear my name whispered in a noisy room, and see my posts requoted. I am glad I posted something even remotely useful or memorable. My wish came true – Frankel is a champion many times over.
29 Sep 2010, 15:48
Can I temporarily change the thread title to: “What DO you think”We all have a brain that plays tricks on us from time to time. It sorts things out for us, without our knowing, and that includes producing our opinions for us. Our eyes and ears take in information, and then our brain meshes it with all our accumulated experience and “Bingo!” – we have an opinion.
My opinion is that Frankel will turn out to be one of the best racehorses of the past fifty years, if he stays healthy.
He looks to have the ability to run fast enough, and in his last two races I have seen that he “loves” to run fast. In the last three furlongs of his last two races his demeanour shouts: “Look at me. Look how fast I can run. Isn’t running fast really brilliant”. I just hope he can hang on to that exhilaration for as long as possible.
I want Frankel to be a champion for his own sake, and because I am a great admirer of Henry Cecil. He and F T Winter have been my two heroes, for all their diverse characteristics, since I became interested in racing and breeding in the early 1960s.
There is not much objective evidence that Frankel will turn out to be a champion and we can talk about that evidence until the cows come home and not reach any agreement. But if we were all objective then: trainers would be chief executives of small/medium sized businesses earning £100,000 a year instead suffering the angst of injured horses and demanding owners; stable staff would be selling mobile phones or food or beauty products instead of mucking out at 5:30 in the morning; and owners would be investing their money at a 5% profit instead of at an 80% loss.
I love that when I am betting I can employ rational analysis to aid the enjoyment of horse racing. But I am not going to be betting on Frankel. And really, the best bits of racing are the thrill, the excitement, the completely irrational, the wholly emotional thoughts like: “I want Frankel to be a champion”.
Twas a good performance in the Champion Stakes…but not one belonging to the greatest ever.
At least we know that he’s better on good ground, and that 1m 4f on soft would be too much IMHO against top opposition. I do think, on good/GF, he could win G1’s over that distance, such is his superiority.
Although it’s been great watching this beast, personally, I will always find his career tinged with sadness. What could have been….could he have proved himself the greatest ever?
I actually feel sorry for the horse. Like any champion, if you asked him if he wanted to go and compete on the biggest stage (overseas) aginst the strongest rivals the world has to offer, he’d probably be quite keen
I do think he still could have proved so much, either way. I also think his stock would have risen, justifiably so, to the current hyperbolic levels, rather than the claims of
greatest
ever feeling a little hollow.
So, perhaps we could have a poll:
What would Frankel say if he could talk and was asked if he would like to go and "fight" at the Breeders Cup and then the Dubai World Cup?
a) No thanks, I’m awfully tired of all this and would rather become a media consultant henceforth.
b) Hmmm, maybe. (i.e. making ambivalent noises as he wants a MONSTER match/win fee..like any self-respecting champ).
c) You betchya…lemme at ’em!!!
I think C, unequivocally.
Zip
Twas a good performance in the Champion Stakes…but not one belonging to the greatest ever.
At least we know that he’s better on good ground, and that 1m 4f on soft would be too much IMHO against top opposition. I do think, on good/GF, he could win G1’s over that distance, such is his superiority.
Although it’s been great watching this beast, personally, I will always find his career tinged with sadness. What could have been….could he have proved himself the greatest ever?
I actually feel sorry for the horse. Like any champion, if you asked him if he wanted to go and compete on the biggest stage (overseas) aginst the strongest rivals the world has to offer, he’d probably be quite keen
I do think he still could have proved so much, either way. I also think his stock would have risen, justifiably so, to the current hyperbolic levels, rather than the claims of
greatest
ever feeling a little hollow.
So, perhaps we could have a poll:
What would Frankel say if he could talk and was asked if he would like to go and "fight" at the Breeders Cup and then the Dubai World Cup?
a) No thanks, I’m awfully tired of all this and would rather become a media consultant henceforth.
b) Hmmm, maybe. (i.e. making ambivalent noises as he wants a MONSTER match/win fee..like any self-respecting champ).
c) You betchya…lemme at ’em!!!
I think C, unequivocally.
Zip
This is Buddilea from another forum isn’t it?
Poor you. This must be REALLY killing you.
Your post does not merit an answer.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Hi Marginal Value, many thanks indeed for identifying yourself. Yes, your description was brilliantly apt and wonderfully perceptive. So it was amusing yesterday to read that Frankel’s lad also puts the success down to the fact that ‘Frankel just likes going fast’.
Where does this nonsense that the Dubai World Cup in some way determines whether a horse is truly great come from ?
Myself and the old man were there yesterday and as we stood watching Excelebration saunter to victory on the big screen in the paddock (we had managed to get on the rail in front of the weighing room and weren’t going anywhere!) we began discussing Dancing Brave.
We were and are big fans of the Pulborough superstar, but wondered if Bering had not plotted an unbeaten 3-y-o domestic campaign immediately prior to the Arc, and had instead contested the same races as Dancing Brave, finishing runner up in lets say the Guineas, Eclipse and King George, would Dancing Brave’s achievements have been downgraded, with pundits concluding that he "just keeps beating the same horse".
Putting it another way, if Frankel had been stepped up in trip following the Guineas, having defeated the Botti charge in the Greenham, and Excelebration had then won eleven straight races (I am making the assumption he would have won the St James’s Palace as the race would have been run more to suit) would Frankel’s reputation now be even greater?
Based on yesterday’s QEII performance there is every reason to suspect that Excelebration has been significantly underrated as a result of being dismissed as merely an inferior to Frankel. However Joseph O’Brien’s post race interview was very illuminating when he revealed they had sacrificed the horse in trying to match strides with Frankel, and that yesterday’s race proved what he is capable of when allowed to run his own sort of race.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they took in the July Cup next year if he stays in training. Looking further forward, and given Tony Morris’ recent comments about regression to the mean in thoroughbred breeding, it wouldn’t be the biggest surprise in the world if Excelebration actually achieved more at stud than his illustrious racecourse rival.
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