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he must be older than 52 – we have too many shared memories and I’m ancient…think he may be my long lost brother…….
Yeah but don’t forget… I wasn’t born until I was 22
Yeah your right mate but hey I am bomb proof. I feel honoured the guy picked me out.
Reminds me of my days back in the Uk when you walk into a bar and some grump says "Who da f*** are you lookin at"
Nice horse terrible race……the others were strung out all over the county a sure fire indication they were a moderate bunch.
However he moves like a good horse and could win a lot more races if the handicapper doesn’t punish him too much.
He’s on a hiding to nothing going to Cheltenham.
It could be he is either a lot better than he seems on the book or they think he will be over an extended trip.
It is more likely though the owner want’s him to run at Cheltenham. If that’s the case and he were mines I would be keeping him in his box.
There are loads of races that they could find for him where he wouldn’t be 12lbs out the handicap. If he runs up one of the top horses backsides and finishes a close 2nd or 3rd he won’t be winning so easily again. The handicapper will murder him.
Hope he wins or finishes stone last and if the trainer thinks it’s a waste of time running him he will.
I’d watch the betting and he is around 5 or 6’s it might be an indication they do think he’s special and he might just be a very safe EW bet.
I think that’s disgusting………save me a big juicy steak of Kauto’s ass if he gets beat in the King George and Gold Cup I got my balls on him and wont be able to even eat them if he loses
You are also entitled to yours. However the comparison you make isn’t woth a pinch of salt. Neither horses form is worth a dogs breakfast over 2 miles 4 furlongs.
So lets settle for this. If they met over 2 miles at Cheltenham Moscow Flyer after a hard fought battle would show his superior speed and win by 2 lenths. If it was over 3 miles at Kempton Moscow would never get the trip in a million years stop to crawl at the 3rd last and come home beaten 62 lengths.
now take the 2 lengths from Cheltenham and the 62 lengths from kempton add them together and divided them by 2.5 miles at Aintree and you get 24.8 lengths victory for Best Mate. That’s a lot of distance for your horse to make up……..if you want maybe I can talk to the handicapper and get him to give matey a couple lbs extra and make it fair.
Geez Grasshopper don’t you know anything about racing?
Don’t know if he has revealed his real identity on a previous thread, but seems to be well in with the racing fraternity.
Likes to defend the indefensible, when viewed through the punters perspective. which obviously won’t endear himself to me.Anyone any idea who he really is ??
The only guess I can hazard, he is aged between 48 and 52, probably now works as a hack.
Could be miles off the beaten track ?I suppose you have a right to know. If you go here all will become clear to you http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007- … 319974.jpg
The horse slipped and fell he never collapsed. I had one bet this week and it was him and was glad to see him win the race for the fourth time and not just from a financial point of view, but Noel Fehily should be banned for life.
Had he have done his job properly and won he would probably got lost on the way to the weighing room and lost it for failing to weigh in
.Listen to Bruce Grasshopper you are a long way from taking the pebble out of my hand.
None of the above got into a champion v champion clash like this.
You don’t get many for obvious reasons
The most famous one was
Dunkirk V Arkle at kempton
2.2 furlong later Dunkirk had gone such a pace Arkle trying to hsake arke he had nothing left in the tank. Unfortuanetly he fell and was killed but Arkle had already swept past him at the time.
Running against a top class horse is a lifetime of differnece to winning over 2.4m on good ground against a bunch of no hopers.
The pace is stronger and the trip becomes much harder to get.
Moscow Flyer was all over a 2 mile horse they ran at Aintree because it was easy puckings and the ground suited them.
The only time he ran on soft over the trip he was beaten easily.
Best Mate was the horse they said was a 2 1/2 to 3 mile horse and said wouldn’t get the Gold Cup trip. He was no slouch over 2 1/2 having finished 2nd to Barton when he was all wrong at Aintree,
Moscow Flyer won a lot of very bad races at very short prices. He also won good races but never by far. Azertyuiop 1 1/2 lengths….Well Chief 2 lengths for example.
He was and always will be a top class 2 mile chaser. Put him in against a Horse like Best Mate who was a triple Gold Cup Winner ( not some mickey mouse no hoper) over 2 1/2 in soft or heavy he simply have way too many guns for him. as Moscow just wouldn’t get the trip.
You’re kidding me Bruce, right?
Firstly, the invocation of Arkle into your argument, tells me that I’ve already won on a technical knockout, so I won’t indluge that line of reasoning any further.
Secondly, Moscow Flyer won a bundle of G1 chases in Ireland by short distances, because he never, ever, did a tap in front.
Thirdly, in terms of ‘class’, Moscow Flyer beat Azertyuiop and Well Chief in the Tingle Creek when those horses were rated 178 and 176 (if I recall correctly). That would make them some….I dunno….a stone perhaps?….better animals than anything Best Mate ever had to tackle in any of his three Gold Cup’s (the routinely-disappointing-at-Cheltenham Beef Or Salmon apart).
For the record, Moscow Flyer raced over fences twice at 2m4f – both times at Aintree in the Melling Chase. He hacked-up from Isio the first time by 7L, and he hacked-up from Le Roi Miguel the second time by 16L, with the race reader describing the performances as “readily” and “impressive” respectively.
Over to you.
The mention of Arkle was simply trying to get it through to you what happens when a good 2 mile horse takes on a good 3 mile horse at a distance beyond 2 miles.
Kempton 3 miles is the easiest in the country and a good 2/1 mile horse has more getting the trip there than anywhere else
Best Mate who almost won the King George as a mere 6 year old had tons of speed and it was the speed he showed at Kempton and in races shorter than 3 miles, that started the doubter saying he wouldn’t get the gold cup trip.
He trotted up at Sandown over two and a half and as you know also won the King George the following year.
He was a high Class 3 miles horse who 3 Gold Cups over a distance too far for him in my opinion.
I have fallen into the trap you are falling into by looking at a horse and totally forgetting there is a huge difference between 2 and 2 1/2 miles when you are taking on the best, You his class will carry him through but it just doesn’t work like that. I have seen so many good horses try and go that extra 1/2 mile an come unstuck and it has hurt my pocket. My experience would tell me bet the stayer.
There is nothing in the Form book that tells me Moscow Flyer would get the trip against a top class horse. Best Mate you can be sure would get the trip and I would rather bet a horse I know gets the trip than one who might.
e.g. Someone mentions Kauto Star…..now stick him in the 2 mile four furlong race and your Moscow Flyer wouldn’t blow wind up his backside.
History has proven time and time again the speed 2mile horses very seldom wins these clashes.
Maybe you’re right, FoF.
Remittance Man, Viking Flagship, Edredon Bleu, Flagship Uberalles, Direct Route, Native Upmanship, Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Monets Garden etc etc etc. All of them generally useless over 2m4f, and at the mercy of stayers over such a trip.
I seldom use this emoticon, but……..
Listen to Bruce Grasshopper you are a long way from taking the pebble out of my hand.
None of the above got into a champion v champion clash like this.
You don’t get many for obvious reasons
The most famous one was
Dunkirk V Arkle at kempton
2.2 furlong later Dunkirk had gone such a pace Arkle trying to hsake arke he had nothing left in the tank. Unfortuanetly he fell and was killed but Arkle had already swept past him at the time.
Running against a top class horse is a lifetime of differnece to winning over 2.4m on good ground against a bunch of no hopers.
The pace is stronger and the trip becomes much harder to get.
Moscow Flyer was all over a 2 mile horse they ran at Aintree because it was easy puckings and the ground suited them.
The only time he ran on soft over the trip he was beaten easily.
Best Mate was the horse they said was a 2 1/2 to 3 mile horse and said wouldn’t get the Gold Cup trip. He was no slouch over 2 1/2 having finished 2nd to Barton when he was all wrong at Aintree,
Moscow Flyer won a lot of very bad races at very short prices. He also won good races but never by far. Azertyuiop 1 1/2 lengths….Well Chief 2 lengths for example.
He was and always will be a top class 2 mile chaser. Put him in against a Horse like Best Mate who was a triple Gold Cup Winner ( not some mickey mouse no hoper) over 2 1/2 in soft or heavy he simply have way too many guns for him. as Moscow just wouldn’t get the trip.
There was abig differnece you failed to mention though.
Monksfield a 15/1 shot for the Champion was totally unfancied the first time they met.
At Aintree it was a great race but Monksfield wasn’t anyting like the horse he became.
On the second occasion Night Nurse 3/1 was still the horseeveryone was talking about. He was fancied by everyone and their uncles, me included. Plus he was still only a 7 year old at the time and in his prime. He met a much more mature Monksfiled in 1978 and he beat him very easily by 8 lengths.
They both ran once more at Aintree in the 1978 Templgate and Monksfield proved far superior again.
I just can’t convince myself he was as good as Monkey no matter how hard I try.
Tricky card so I am a having one bet.
Favourite but certain to run a big race "Spot the Difference" loves the track and sure to be spot on.
No offence but I am not wrong.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Back then you could get away with betting horses at SP and get a lot more out of it than you would running around the course trying to get 10,000 pounds on a novice hurdler. Your commitment was less and the rewards were higher.
1000 pounds that doesn’t get back to the course at 33/1 you win 33 grand.
If a horse was around 5/1 I could get 3 or 4 grand on and be guaranteed not one cent would get back. I would have got 3/1 on average at the track.
Much depend on what you know that other people don’t know on how you place bets.
How much would you have to put on to win 20 to 30 grand in a bad novice hurdle at the track ?
If it’s a competitive handicap hurdle the you can help yourself as they are much harder to win and the price stands up better to heavy bets.
Anyway, Mecca introduced the rule to protect themselves against multiple betting
Now the rule is still there but slightly disguised. 2 words cover it "Price Rigging
Basically if you ran round a couple hundreds William Hill shops and put 10 quid on in each they had a ruling that they could restrict the price.
Mecca’s price was 8/1 even if the horse started at 50/1. It was multiple betting on the same horse or greyhound to attempt to manipulate the odds, or something like that.
You run about putting tenners on like we did that is exactly what you are attempting to do. If "a face" (someone in the know) walked into Hills and asked for 20,000 pounds on at 20/1 he would get 100 quid on and the rest at SP which would be cut to 6/1 or less in a flash.
If you got past their security with 200 tenners in 200 of their shops and the horse won at 20/1 cos nothing got back to the course, they have the right not to pay you and they would not. You have tried and succeded to rig the price and you would have a very long court case ahead of you if you tried to collect, which you would lose.
Can you imagine all your guys turning up at court saying I never met him in my life?…..only takes one to say he asked me to go to 10 shops and put ten quid on the same horse in each and you have lost.
They were stung several times by people doing this to Con them to use your words. Nowadays you wouldn’t get paid a coin and would be sussed before your people got 1/4 of the way round the shops they were hitting.
Hope that explains it better to you.
The most important factor in any race is the ground. Moscow Flyer won at Aintree twice over 2 1/2 miles I believe, but against moderate opponenets on good ground. Best Mate could not be described as moderate in anyone’s book
If we are talking about the time of the year when the ground is most likely to be soft or Heavy my cash would be firmly on Best Mate. Moskow Flyer would be reaching the end of his tetherwith 2 to jump and Best Mate has enough class to take the spoils.
History has proven time and time again the speed 2mile horses very seldom wins these clashes.
She was critical of Dermot a lot more than once. In truth Mrs. D wouldn’t share a can of coke with the man and if she shook hands with him she be counting her fingers after it
I sat with him at a Jockey’s dinner and dance and I can tell you the guy was not the type of person you would normally find in a Dickinson yard. Great fun to be with but the guy was a total lunatic and I couldn’t possibly say this but some say he would rob his granny if he could.
"Needle man" eventually became one of the most hated men in racing.
Browne’s Gazzzette was some animal though and when Keelby Cavalier finished 2nd to him at Cheltenhah, his jockey said "that fellow will win the Champion"………With Dermot on board who knows what really happened that day and what made him fly jump. All I know is he ran 2 stone below his best and rumour has it……..well use your imagination
I doubt anything that says here’s a magic formula.
The prolem with Timeform is it omits to tell you the horse they are top rating jumped through a hedge yersterday and has a bruised hind quarter.
Exageration but I think you get my point
Phil Bull was it who made lots of money? Wonder who was paying him.
At best it could be described as a useful tool to aid a punter in his quest for winners.
You need a lot more than some time figures to pick winners.
I would advise anyone to use their own eyes,ears and judgement. Never be influenced by books or sytems if they worked we would all be loaded.
