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Well here’s my result or at least my idea of a result………suprise Rooster was withdrawn at the start and he and his jockey were last seen heading up the M1 to Sedgefield for the 5 O’clock The "Stuff this for a Game of Soldiers Handicap Hurdle" run over 17 miles for untried maidens
Istabraq: He was one of the classiest animals I ever saw on a race course. If someone said he would have won any Champion Hurdle I would not argue. My only concern with him was would he come out on top against another GREAT HURDLER if it came down to a fight. He was so classy nothing ever as much as made him break sweat when he was on song. That is the only glitch in his make-up I can find and that’s a big maybe…..a certainty for the first 4.
Salmon Spray: The year before he won he beat Champion hurdler Magic Court in hack canter, He was a joy to watch and a real class act. Flying Bolt had already won a race at the meeting and was stable companion of the mighty Arkle. He was rated only 2nd to “Himself–If they where honest people their would be no problem,but the Bookmaker is a man born of dishonest“
Comments came in “Figaro“ the magazine!
Isn`t this liable?
Funny coming from a racehorse trainer………..Is that liable?
Actually moralising Bookmaking is quite tricky if you consider the likes of William Hill and Joe Coral where very much into taking bets long before licensing became an issue, in fact, most of the modern day Bookmakers dirived from illegal operations,that brings me to the next question:-
Was their some type of amnesty?
or are we simply 40 years ahead of Russia……ie Mafia are now known as Businessmen (or Women)!!
Classically funny
Actually I find course bookmakers very honest people. When my friend was riding and I was going racing regular I would even bother collecting if he was in ahurry to get off……..next meeting I went to and could be a week, the cash was always there without asking. Grand bunch of lads win lose or draw. Must be French bookies they talking about.
PS were William Hill and Joe Coral actually a bookies at one time? I thought they were always accountants
Truth is we punters don’t mean didly **** in comparson to the horses wellfare
Why, then, are whips allowed other than for corrective purposes? Is a horse’s welfare being compromised be being asked to run to the line when there are other horses around it? What is the difference between that and being asked to run to the line when there are no other horses around it?
I don’t think it’s a question of horse welfare in this instance. People seem to be asking that a horse is kept up to its work even when there is no immediate challenge, nothing more.
What has a whip got to do a jockey looking after a horse?
"What is the difference between that and being asked to run to the line when there are no other horses around it?" you ask
There is a huge difference. He has a choice.
The Jockey if he is worth a pinch of salt, knows the horse has done enough and he simply eases down and let’s him come home in his own time with as little effort as possible. He’s not trying to look smart or stylish he is doing his job professionally.
That is called looking after the horses welfare, well being or whatever you want to call it.
It is an indiviudal looking after another individual’s long term interest that I am talking about……… not the policy on whips in racing.
I accumulated a large sum of cash on my Barclaycard last year and went into my local Barclays branch to try and withdraw it (I didn’t have an account there). However, max withdraw per day was only a few hundred quid and they wanted to charge 2% for the privilege. Chat with a personal banker later they dumped the balance into a premier current account for no fee and basically rolled out the red carpet (winning the Scoop6 bonus fund a couple of weeks later probably helped too). They know I’m a punter and have no problems with me withdrawing large sums over the counter and my bank statements are 90% betting transactions. I even included antepost bets on Ryan Moore for last year’s jockeys’ championship in my list of savings/investments. Guess their attitude might change if I knocked it all out and asked for a loan but as far as their attitude to my punting goes, they don’t have a problem with it.
If I was your bank manager and you asked me for a loan I would give you it and be asking you what horse you were going to bet, so I could make a few quid as well
Paradoxically, I think that the incidents that the stewards pick up on are unlikely to be true cases of "pulling" or of a horse "not being off".
I didn’t see the race in question, but from what I can gather from the posts above, it was a small field, hardly the sort of race where you think you can give your horse a "quiet one" and it not being picked up.
It would be a particularly artless jockey who would be picked up by our stewards.
As has been said above, like it, or not, there are dozens of horses in a week who are not there to win the race they are running in.
For a lot of us, it is part of the "intrigue" and "attraction" of the sport. Spot the triers is a fun game to play.
Whether this should be the state of play or not, I’ll leave for others to judge, but to think it isnt, is probably naive at best and possibly foolish at worst…………….and undoubtedly costly.
Colin
You are absolutely spot on and it’s refreshing to read something from someone who obviously has a good understanding of the game.
Talking NH Here, If an owner is going for a touch it is mostly novice hurdlers and that’s the place to look out for them. Don’t expect them to be in the first 10 either. you don’t want any "Finished well" reports stuck to your name. If you hear the word "Strong" being barterred about you can forget any touch you have planned. He’ll be 12/1 in the papers and open up a 5/2 on the course the day he’s off.
The Stewards will very seldom pick on on these horses unless it is sticking out like a sore thumb. Other people like sports writers, the bookies, Jockeys are the guys who can spot them with their eyes shut.
Spotting one yourself and waiting for the day it’s off is alot of fun. It’s not something all of us can do. The normal punter will see a horse under pressure and the jockey give him a few smacks round the backside to try and get him into the race.
What they have actually seen is a very good actor whipping fresh air and saying "steady son" That is why they are called professional Jockeys.
Who ever said the camera never lies was a fool and should start going racing
I’m not entirely sure taht the case truly revolved round the non-departure of the other Collins horses. Had the horses left the yard but not made it to the races, the allegation would remain that they were purely a smokescreen for a punt on Gay Future. The subterfuge involved would back this up. It’s also worth pointing out that several firms honoured the bets so some sort of coup was landed.
BTW, am I the only one who thinks the ploy of doubles and trebles was misplaced? The liability on a £20 treble would raise more eyebroes than a £40 single surely?
Had it been any other course the horse would have started 3/1 on but there was no real commuincation between Cartmel and the ouside world then
But don’t kid yourself that 40 pound singles dont raise eyebrows and most bookmakers cover their backsides anyway.
I was involved in a touch and the largest bet we had was 10 pounds.
We had already landed a massive touch with the horse but he was injured and had been off the course for a couple of years.
WE thought he had an excellent chance of winning and was a big price in a handicap hurdle at Hexam. Just for the crack and a bit of fun we got all our frineds together and bet the horse each way in so many shops between Edinburgh and Glasgow we had a small fortune riding on the horse.
Not one person broke the rule (there are ways of finding out) and struck a big bet. The horse was such a big price there was no need and they would only have cut their own throats as there was no early beting on the race.
When I arrived at the races 2 people I know, one works for himself the other for one of the big firms, started laughing and asked "who’s been a naught boy?"
They knew almost every bet we struck but fortunately they were very, very good friends and stepped aside not having a bet….some money got back but not alot and although reduced from 33/1 to 16’s and we did very well thank you. Unfortunately he was beaten half length or so by a horse who burst blood vessels almost everytime he ran, but on that particular day ran to the best of his form. I should have had a sniper with me
But there is a rule and bookies can fall back on it. Mecca definately had it when they were on the go. If it can be proven you have bet a horse in this fashion the maxiumum price shall be 8/1 or whatever. They can’t not pay you, but they can reduce their liability by implimenting this law..making your touch look at little wimpy and making you wish you had just went to the track and stuck yer lot on.
That was 15 years ago or more nowadays you can start the alarm bells ringing with a fiver.
Any horse taking more than say 150 quid is reported to head office. You go to 20 ladbrokes shops and have a fiver on in each…a couple of managers spot the liability and a little bell in the shop goes DING!!!!. every manager checks every bet……….100 quid on and at the expected price of 40/1 for example you would expect to take 4,000 pound out the ring. All they do is send back 200 quid along with all the other bookies you have tried to sting and take all the 40’s the 20’s the 10’s and the 5’s. Horse starts at 3/1 and you get 400 quid are as sick as a parrot and they are only too happy to pay you out…."Come again Sir"
Guys
Back then on a Bank Holiday there was mutiple entries allowed and you never knew half the time where a horse would end up going.
I was riding out at the time and if they had asked me where Even Keel was running I could have told them in a hearbeat. Even, if to be certain, they had called up Rhona Oliver, said they were a fan and wanted to go watch him running, she would have gladly and without hesitation told them.Trainers are not hard people to get hold off and all they needed to do was find out, without involving anyone else, where 2 horses were going for sure then do there 3 cross bets and trebles naming the horses course and race time. Make sure both ran at the same time or near enough to Gay Future and you have a perfectly innocent looking bet eg. Even Keel 2.30 Newcastle Arcturus 2.30 Haydock Gay Future 2.30 Cartmel………one winner 2 non runners from the yards of 2 different well respected trainers with absolutely no knowledge of what was going down.
Sure they would cotton on it was a touch but without their stupidity in involving 2 horses from the same yard trained by Mr Tony "Evil Knievel" Collins they would have cleaned up.
……..and more :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hC0TFxHhg
Colin
Thank you Thank You Thank you
been looking for that for ages.
Most Jockey who have ridden their fare share of winner don’t go battering up the run in at a million miles an hour when there is no need.
They are just looking after their horses.
Occasionally they get caught napping but we can’t have horses getting hammered up the run in everytime, just because Willy Smith lost a few quid, when one got beat that shouldn’t have.
Truth is we punters don’t mean didly **** in comparson to the horses wellfare….it’s all in the game, accept it and move on becuase it’s not going to change
I was gutted when he stopped training here.
Michael reminded me of Queen Victoria the first time I saw him. He was making his way back to the weighing room haven fallen off a horse at Carlisle races. Don Nolan was having a bit of a go at him as jockeys tend to do. He just turned and glared at him as if to say "Fool" it was sort of like "We are not Amused"
He had that aloofness about him that most geniuses do.
He absolutely went though Robert Earnshaw like a dose of salts at Market Rasen, because he had Silver Buck a bit wrong at 1 of his fences. The fact Silver Buck had won out the park meant nothing to Michael.
He was a perfectionist and expected nothing less from his staff.
There was an equine lecture in London to help horse owners and trainers better understand the make up of horses. How and why they break down etc. The only Horse trainer who attended it was Michael out of the dozens that were invited.
I cringe when people talk about the best NH Trainer and a certain name keeps popping up. The trainer in question doesn’t give a sh** about his horses. He has a "winner at all cost attitude" Goes through more horses than the knackers yard and should have his licence taken off him
Michael was a totally different ball game. He like his father before him loved his horses. Anyone who ever worked for him would tell you he treated the horses better than you would your own children.
That paid off handsomly when the famous 5 came home giving him a place in history that will never be equalled let alone surpassed. To get one horse to Cheltenham fit and ready to do himself justice, on that particular day is an extremely difficult thing to do.
To have 5 horse spot on for the Gold Cup and do what they did was Amazing. Perhaps a little less amazing when you take into consideration his great judgement of a horse, his dedication to his craft and his unquestionable love of his animals. Those are the things that kept most of his horses ready to run at anytime.
For me Michael Dickinson was one off, if not the best NH trainer of all time.
He was also one of the most repected names in racing among his fellow trainersHe has been sadly missed in this country for a very long time
Happy Retirement
However, your comment on Andy Turnell reminds me of the heaviest man ever to ride a derby winner……………..can you tell me who?
A more low-brow person than myself would suggest that this is the age-old joke about Lester Piggott’s cellmate……
My Apolgies to you and the guy……….had a few beers in me and the post just annoyed me. Rooster Booster!!! if he was in a 2 horse race with the horses I have seen win the CH they wouldn’t even run a book.
However it did urge me to write individual reports on each horse and explain why I think and why. Which no doubt will attract a few comments like the above………I better stay of the beer
I will probably stick it up tomorrowBTW I stuck a few ringers in there at stupid prices to make it more interesting.
If I was to have made up the prices as I really thought my first 4 in the betting would have finished 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th. Would they not?
If you read one of my other posts regarding Kauto Star you will see I mention I have a friend who was a bookie for a lot of years.
As a matter of interest I asked him to do a very quick book. It took him about 3 minutes albeit he was as drunk as me but he came up with this.
5/1 Persian War, 11/2 Monksfield 13/2 Night Nurse,Sea Pigeon, 7/1 Bula 8/1 Istabraq, 10/1 Salmon Spray,Comedy of Errors 12/1 Lanzarote,14/1 Alderbrook, Hardy Eustace 16/1 See You Then, Beech Road 20/1 Morley Street, 25/1 Gay Brief 33/1 Brave Inca, 250/1 Rooster Booster
He missed one out, but good I thought and pretty near to what I think. Only thing is he won’t let me have a bet
Often said when I die I want to come back as a racehorse win the derby and retire to stud as a 3 year old. I coulnd’t wait so I moved to Thailand
That aside I would be the horse who is featured in amazing videos who ran over the top of the baby in the pram (unharmed) He was heading for the bookies when his jockey told him "You’ll win today"
Following on from a stupid conversation held during last night’s TRF Poker game I’d like to ask –
Which horse best mirrors your character?
I came up with Bird’s Nest – Game and genuine but usually found one or two too good. (Wouldn’t fancy being ridden by Andy Turnell though)
I wil get to me soon but Birds Nest game and genuine??? I thought he should have won loads of races but came there on the bridle and just wouldn’t go past. Cost me fortunes the old booger
However, your comment on Andy Turnell reminds me of the heaviest man ever to ride a derby winner……………..can you tell me who?
How could we forget BROWNE’S GAZETTE whipping round at the start and all, but refusing to race in the Champion when hot favourite.
He could be very unrully and sometimes uncontrolable. Everyone including his jockey thought he was acting the goat again, when running through the rails in Newcastle’s Fighting Fifth (Please correct me if i am wrong) What had actually happened that day is he had a heart attack, which sent him reeling across the course and killed him.
I find this hard to swallow that a bank has an attitude like this. If you payments going to wine companies maybe theywould refuse you help incase you were an alcoholic.
I will say that I took the advice of my Bank Manager many years ago and opened a separate racing account. Ok It was a pretty healthy account but I had a huge overdraft facilty on my business account due to large stock holdings.
Bank manager used to ask me for tips
Maybe things have changed and it is now policy not to lend to anyone who is using over a certain percentage of his account for betting.
Who knows nowadays how they think.
