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It took Camelot the best part of eleven furlongs to catch his pacemaker. Frankel would destroy him over ten furlongs.
In fact, I don’t think Camelot is necessarily the best twelve furlong horse at Ballydoyle. It will probably never happen, but St Nicholas Abbey vs Camelot, anyone?
At level weights, no pacemaker, equal luck in running, does anyone actually think a 3yo can beat a seasoned world class stayer?
Strike a light alf – you guys sure love to discuss 25 million ways Frankel can beat any other half decent horse on the planet don’t yas! Always imaginary meet ups that are unlikely to ever happen. Same dudes beating the frankel drum every thread – you may as well chalk these clashes down on his CV we all know he would do it don’t we.
I wonder if there are any forums in Australia where enthusiasts talk about Black Caviar and what she might do/has done? It wouldnt surprise me as it is quite natural for those that love their racing to debate what might happen if such and such a horse met such and such another. I have an idea!!!! Why dont you have a look and then you can join them!
I am sorry if our debate upsets you AIC but can’t you give us just a little break on today of all days. It IS our (and your) beloved Queen’s jubilee after all!
Don’t get me going on that – I’m a staunch republican – cant understand why we didn’t get rid of that connection a decade ago when we had the chance!
Whilst an Aussie horse is racing in UK I’ll probably hang around here a while longer mate.
I don’t know the full ins and outs of this but in Australia there is a totilisator which is licensed by the government to provide all the off-course betting terminals in pubs and clubs and TAB’s (betting shops on your typical ‘high street’). Every dollar wagered is taxed at around 18% and these revenues filter back to the racing industry and is their primary source of funding for prizemoney etc.
The same company that runs the totilisator owns 3/4 of our racing channels, so they run side by side with all tote odds displayed on the screen at all times.
We’re still working through how it works with all the online betting options but I do know Betfair and the online corporate bookies here have recently lost a court decision which has seen them up their take to 6.5%. They have been told they have to pay a licensing fee/tax to the clubs for the race fields.
From my experiences punting-wise the two countries are chalk and cheese – going from Australia to the UK is like going back in time 50 years.
Strike a light alf – you guys sure love to discuss 25 million ways Frankel can beat any other half decent horse on the planet don’t yas! Always imaginary meet ups that are unlikely to ever happen. Same dudes beating the frankel drum every thread – you may as well chalk these clashes down on his CV we all know he would do it don’t we.
So You Think wouldn’t get anywhere near Excelebration on the mile, nevermind Frankel. He took bloody ages to get past Workforce, a 1 mile and a half horse, and never seemed to genuinely be able to outpace Snow Fairy or Cirrus Des Aigles, hardly speed horses themselves. And, for all the training bullshit, he could be trained as a quaterhorse for all I care, there’s no way he would have matched Excelebration, Canford Cliffs, Dream Ahead for speed. There’s a reason why they picked to run in the weakest group 1 of the season, rather than take on Frankel.
Cirrus Des Aigles is just about the best middle distance galloper on the planet!
Hardly a speed horse? French trained?
Seabird you’re talking to Aussies about what a speed horse is…..I think we’ve got that topic covered pretty good as a nation – don’t you?
How in heavens name do you guys come to the conclusion that he’s best at 2000m?
He’s never run shorter than that in Europe!
In Australia he ran at 1400 1600 1800 2000 2040 and a single run at 3200 in which he failed to stay.
2000 in the UK is more like 2200-2400 in Australia. 1600-1800 in UK is more like 1800-2000 in Aust.
You only think he’s purely a 2000+ horse because that’s all you’ve seen!
I’m not going to say he’s the best miler in Europe but I’d put my nuts that he’d carry Excellibration – over ANY distance – as long as he was trained properly for the race.
There’s little doubt Black Caviar is as good at her job as Frankel is at his but when it comes to promoting the individual horses UK racing haven’t got a bloody clue
On her last run Black Caviar increased the gate at the track by 3000 I believe when Frankel ran it was nearer 300.
How sad is that?
3000 ???
Try 30,000.
And it happened twice, two weeks apart.
Last October I was in Sydney with my woman who has a son,his wife, and a small grandson there.
When a big race had been run in Australia it was reported on in the sport section of the evening television news, The Caulfield Cup, the Cox Plate, Black Cavier winning twice, and other races whilst I was there, bearing in mind that at that time there was a big rugby union international tournament going on in New Zealand and a lot of high profile rugby league matches too.
The news programmes always took time to report on the top level racing.
When does that happen in England? The 2000 Guineas got no mention as far as I remember, The Derby last year only got shown because the winning jockey, a frenchman, stood up and waved his whip at the assembled "great and good" as he won.
The trainer who is the husband of that News of the World woman gets more "airtime" for getting arrested than anything positive happening in English racing.
In Australia, racing, as far as I could ascertain, is classless, you can even buy a beer in the betting rooms in the RSL clubs and in pubs whilst placing a bet. Even my woman’s son who has no real interest in racing and has never been to a race meeting knows about Black Caviar. He has also heard about Frankel!
When I was living in the UK this was one of the things I missed most about home – being able to go to the pub and have a proper decent meal and a few bets.
Not much doubt in my mind if you like a beer and a punt then Australia is probably your nirvana on this earth.
to me, his form is strong enough for any of our races have to offer. hes beaten a derby and arc winner, oaks/irish oaks/blah blah blah, the list goes on for a quite some time.
Beat last year’s King George winner too…quite a list!
Doesn’t really say much for the fabled English middle distance galloping ranks that despite being trained aimed and ridden all wrong an Aussie ‘boat’ was able to come across (by sea?) and ‘reel them in’ so to speak.
So it’s taken 10 runs to get to know him? That’s a lot no?
Mate don’t listen to him he still hasn’t worked him out. If there was any truth to that statement of Aiden’s he wouldn’t have entered a pacemaker on the weekend. His embarrassing trip to Australia with Septimus a few years back showed he’s ignorant/stubborn&pigheaded especially reinforced by his comments and attitude afterwards.
Think you can just rock up and run Aussie stayers off their feet with an English stayer? Hahaa got it completely wrong then, just like with SYT now.
Now, I will bet you blokes a slab and a 6-pack of 2008 Del Diablo Loco Shiraz, purchased on ebay and delivered to address of choice, that Frankel and Black Caviar will never even meet in a race in 2012!!!
Who wants that bet?
That’s right, nobody.
AIC its 1/3 it doesn’t happen so your bets safe but just out of interest ‘should’
Frankel
carrying 9-0 meet
Black caviar
carrying 8-11 say over 7f at York on a warm Sunny day in August on ‘Good’ ground,maybe just on the fast side of good and both were in tip top shape,say there was a field of 10 went to post who would go off favourite and who in your opinion would win?
So whats your take on the above scenario then AIC?
I’d back Frankel in Australia and Black Caviar in the UK, and get myself an arb.
If Bart was training him I’d bet my nuts he trains the speed and turn of foot back into him and he aims straight at Frankel in whatever race Frankel is contesting at Ascot.
It boggles my brain, it’s about the ratio of risk to reward, they paid a fair bit of money for this horse and they have tarnished his reputation in Europe by not training him properly, not aiming him at the right races, not riding him properly in the races he went for.
In my opinion by training him for speed and having a crack at Frankel on the uphill mile at Ascot they stand to lose nothing in terms of his stallion career if they don’t beat him. SYT’s stallion career in Australia was always assurred….the whole point of paying the big bucks and going to Europe was to make him a shuttle stallion. So what sort of a stallion career does SYT have in Europe as things stand now I wonder???
But if he ran Frankel down over a mile…….different story!
Beat the so called ‘greatest horse of all time’ over his pet distance and people realise the dirt track efforts were an abberation and bang you’ve got your shuttle stallion. Lose to him and you’ve still got your stallion career in Australia. IE.nothing would change.
No brainer if you ask me – just cannot understand their decisions with this horse at all.
Says he was wrong thinking SYT was best running along not breaking stride, and they should’ve ridden him for speed….but they put in a pacemaker running along up front.
Do these blokes actually know what the hell they are doing???
Such a shame you never saw the best of SYT in the UK.
I see Paddy Power often Even Money about both
Frankel
and
Black caviar
winning ‘any’ race at Royal Ascot. It might sound too good to be true as both trade odds on for what would seem the obvious targets ‘Queen Anne’ and ‘Golden Jubilee’,now if I was a player I would certainly be wanting the filly to run first as imo she is the one who will get beaten,the thought of a nice lump running onto ‘Frankel’ would appeal a lot more than the other way round!
Agree with this, but it’s hardly rocket science to have slightly more concern for the horse that has to travel half way around the world to a course type that it has never seen before and against horses it has never faced, as opposed to the horse that is basically racing at home in it’s comfort zone against the same old punching bags.
I don’t think you can say a horse is a champion UNTIL he/she wins at the highest level against the best horses and on level weights.
2yo and 3yo form is restricted class racing and just as much about being an early maturing type as it is about overall talent and ability.
I also place less emphasis on results with age allowances and fillies and mares allowances. For example, 3yo’s winning in open company carrying a postage stamp and a feather – take it for what it is, yes – but declare it as proof of absolute greatness – no!
And I’ve seen hulking mares beat up on all sorts of horses and geldings whilst getting weight off them…….discount that too…….but of course if they can do it at level weights then I’m the first to say they deserve all sorts of praise.
It puzzles me how anyone can say with any conviction that a horse is great until they carry the same weight (or more) than the absolute best opposition there is, and get the results on that basis.
You could be forgiven for thinking his optimum trip is 6/7 furlongs couldn’t you?
I am genuinely intrigued to see whether he actually can get further against top class horses. It’s easy to imagine the sheer gulf in class between himself and his peers being enough on its own to see him outrun his opponents over further but does a longer trip really suit him? It’s something we all want to find out.
This animal is something out of the ordinary. That much is for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he were capable of winning against the best opposition between 6 and 12 furlongs.
I quite agree apart from i’d go from 5f to 10f as i previously said. Can you imagine Queally in the Nunthorpe, never mind trying to settle or any of that guff, just point and run full pelt. What a sight that would be, and after seeing the Guinea’s its impossible to imagine anything doing Frankel for toe!
If i had to guess Frankels optimum trip, i would plump for 6 or 7f too. Black Caviar stays 7f…………..
I saw an interview with Ray Cochrane somewhere recently where he reckoned the mare wouldn’t get close to Frankel. He used the word "slaughter" to describe how easily he thinks Frankel would beat her.
I was quite surprised at his comments. He’s generally a quietly spoken fellow not given to sensationalism. And a very shrewd judge of a race horse to boot.
It’s an intriguing prospect.
Woo hoo
Firstly – I’m not going to reply to the boys club comments on last page. This is the internet we’re all at home here.
I hope..Now, I will bet you blokes a slab and a 6-pack of 2008 Del Diablo Loco Shiraz, purchased on ebay and delivered to address of choice, that Frankel and Black Caviar will never even meet in a race in 2012!!!
Who wants that bet?
That’s right, nobody.
Because they will never meet. The Cav might be travelling abroad as part of an owner’s junket, but she’s not being set for an uphill friggen mile, and I’m not holding my breath for Frankel to do anything outside his comfort zone!
So I’m confident, and asking, who’s wants that bet!!!
zzzzzzzzz………cricket noises……
There might not seem that much difference in speed of a 1 mile race and mile and a quarter. But there is between a strongly run mile and slowly run mile and a quarter. Where as at a mile Sir Henry is happy to see his charge go to the front and go at his own pace; doubt if he’d be over the moon at the longer distance if Frankel starts to race freely. Might not get home. All considerations when upping a horse in trip.
Ginger I’m trying hard to understand this discussion, but one thing I’m finding hard to reconcile is – 1) Frankel is the greatest horse of all time, and 2) not 100% sure if he can step up from 1600 to 2000.
Something is just not right in those two comments.
I reckon I know which one is slightly going outside the bounds of reality, but so I’m not made to appear too biased, I’m wondering if you can help me decipher which one it is?
